Enjoyed Jeff Smiths thoughts about using a reverse-rotation motor Chevy in a demo derby, to give multiple rearward gears and one forward.To add:As noted, oil pumps and distributors will not work in reverse. You have to go to old Chris-Craft boat stuff (twin-engine boats used one motor running backwards) where the cam was gear-driven to stay the normal way, or more recently the cam/distributor gear set was changed to keep normal rotation.Same with starter motor. (Changing the starter to the other side of the block would make no difference!) The brushes could be re-wired, then it's back to Chris-Craft for the drive (I bet if we were to check Smokey's old cell-phone records, we'd find a few calls between the two...)Pistons would need to be installed with the arrow to the rear, and the crank would need to be polished in reverse or bearing lifetime is a couple hours.Water pumps for either direction should easily swap, behind whatever pulley.Then after all that, when you get to the torque converter and trans oil pump, you're dead. Ain't gonna work.The easier idea for a hi-perf backing-up car would be to simply flip the rear end over. Best to do with leaf springs, and a diff with a small pinion c/l to axle c/l (meaning, not a 9") and a little extra 90w. Brake backing plates of course would have to be kept in normal position, or normal upright position but swapped side-for-side to have good brakes backing up, which I guess you wouldn't need in a demo derby being as the other guy's fender is your brakes.
Jeff Smith is Decades too Late. Smokey Yunick did it back in his early NASCAR days. Then Smokey then took the rear end and reversed it. Installed it upside down. The theory was to plant the left rear tire, and have it hook up better, when making Left/Turns. Don Garlets did something similiar, the same theroy applied, plant the L/Rear tire. Reverse the engine torque to the rear tires through the driveline...Those theorys are just that, that really don't have a place in the real world. Or we would use them today.... Marine engines are the exception to the rule. They just install a cam cut with a reverse pattern turn the engine backwards, and there you have it. Dual Over Head Cam engines (DOHC) are similiar. the cams better be in their respective places or there will be problems....Big Time.Nothing new. Bob
Kruso: Do yourself a favor and let this subject go. There are solutions to everything. Its the expense of doing this that makes it None Feasable. But cost too much money to do. With todays technology if you think it, it can get done. Money as always has been the route of all evil and always will be. I did research on the Wankel back in 1966. That was an engine ahead of it's time. Rudoulph Diesel made an internal combustion engine work with No Spark Plug. What about distributorless ingition. Starter's made to run reverse not a problem. Why do you have to put the arrows on the pistons in facing rearward? The engine will be set up with the cam timing set for reverse rotation. I have seen engines when shut off at a high RPM run backward, and never hurt a part. Do that to a Sprint Cup Engine and you through $80,000 out the window. What's the difference? MERRY CHRISTMASBob
Strange stuff, guy."Do yourself a favor and let this subject go. There are solutions to everything. Its the expense of doing this that makes it NONE Feasable" Do yourself a favor and check e-bay where there are reverse-rotation short-blocks for a thousand bucks all day."Why do you have to put the arrows on the pistons in facing rearward?" Because of wrist-pin offset. Familiar? "Jeff Smith is Decades too Late. Smokey Yunick did it back in his early NASCAR days." Did you read all of Smith's remarks? "The theory was to plant the left rear tire, and have it hook up better, when making Left/Turns." The theory was to plant the right rear tire, but...don't be confused."Marine engines are the exception to the rule. They just install a cam cut with a reverse pattern turn the engine backwards, and there you have it." Did you miss the part about the oil pump?"Those theorys are just that, that really don't have a place in the real world" This is where it really gets weird. Most of Smokey's did have a place. I'd be willing to bet the sanctioning bodies ruled him out on that one, so that everybody didn't have to do it to keep up. With tighter chassis it of-course would make less difference."I did research on the Wankel back in 1966. That was an engine ahead of it's time." Interesting. That was one theory that really did turn out to not have a place in the real world......and I would enjoy hearing about it, really. Some freinds have been working on an '80s rotary for LSR.
i have not scoped out the article..if jeff wanted three speeds in REVERSE... just flip the rear end upside down.. plug the vent..or thread it and run it into some kinda catch bottle.. or drill and tap the new top side of the axle tube.. .the tires will be driven in the REVERSE direction when the transmission is in drive.. thats SO MUCH easier than creating a reverse rotation engine...a funny demo derby story.... spectator side.. back in the early 90s.. my sister ask me to go to the whatcom county fair in northwest washington.. to see the demo derby.. i love cars .. so i went.. she had other ideas.. she wanted me to identify the winning cars.. by make and model.. so she could buy a duplicate as it could win a demo derby. that must be a strong and safe car.. they had a small and mid size demo first... there were monzas and vegas.. pintos.. and all kinds of other small cars.. but the one that was KICKING.. was a HONDA 600 station wagon.. yes the air cooled 2 cylinder motor cycle powered car.. it was getting bashed by all the other cars.. and it was just bouncing off.. very little damage.. it looked like it was a sure thing to win it... soon it was down to 3 cars.. the honda wagon.. a monza and some other non rememberable small car.. the monza driver was really intent on taking out the honda.. the crowd was cheering the honda on.. the monza got directly in front of the honda and slammed it in reverse... ramming the honda ... the monza ended up with its rear bumper up on the hood of the honda.. rear wheels spinning in the air stuck there.. the honda could not move as its tiny tires had been flattened and the rims were spinning inside the flat tires.. so the other car one.. only the driver of that winning car knows or recalls... but every body recalls the honda 600 wagon that almost won the demo derby.. and if you think i am crazy.. i bet the the guys at motorweld in bellingham still recall that night.. their name was on the side of the honda wagon.. i always wondered if they had filled the panels with concrete or welding slag.. or if it was just a super strong little tiny wagon..
Cool story but, yeah, you didn't read the article and you didn't read the posts above yours...sorta on the level of old "Bob" there... "later"
GUILTY as charged..i did gloss over the first answer...or would the TERM be i flipped over the first answer..
Kruso: Is that an Italian last name. I'm Italian also.Don't ever poke fun at anyone. I have an extensive background in R&D. I worked on programs i.e. Operation Chrome Dome,R&D on CSD (Constant Speed Drive). For Recon. Jet aircraft, Sikorsky Helicopter in R&D. Operation Chrome Dome that people with a Top Secret Security Clearance were privy to that information. Today you can get it off the web. I learned about strain gauge and load bolts before they became common place in our engine builds today. FBW was something I worked on also. Most of those programs we needed to be secret. So we now have a safe country. If we don't keep our research going with could be speaking a different language today. Ask your grandPa or some one from WWII at a VA hospital. Listen to their stories. Enjoy what they have to tell you, you know the Greatest Part of it all? Their information is Free. What Level might that be. The Level of information you can't understand so your going to through stones at it! Make fun! Then try and cover it with you ignorence. Your part of the younger generation that shows NO Respect for Their Peers or anything you may learn from? If thats the case go to happy hour and listen to the crowd there. Don't come to an open Forum and start quoting people and their work when you have NO IDEA of what your talking about. I would bet that 90% of your generation never heard of Wankel. and his rotary engine. I asked if you could answer some of the questions you stated? You didn't attempt to answer any. They are your questions. All you know how to do is miss-quote any information we older gear heads publish on these Forums. It shows me that you run and hide, from simple questions you brought up, not me. Before you start calling anyone old, read the information we supply to you. I am a mechanical engineer,most of the guys on these Forums are engineers also. If not they have all built and raced cars, and driven race cars of their own. We do this "NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO". We do it because we want to see our Hobby and sport carry on for generations to come. Its obvious you don't want to learn. I have a machine shop where we build custom and high performance engines. If someone like you came in the door and already had the answers then go down the street and let them build your engine. Don't waste the time of people that are trying to help the people that want to learn...If this theory of Jeff Smith's and your's was so important why didn't something get done about it then decades ago? Do this for yourself, turn a rearend upside down and run it like you would an everyday car. Answer your own question? So if you want to learn something read what we publish for the people that want to learn. We provide information so you younger guys don't have to learn the way most of us older gear heads learned. The College of trial and error. We couldn't call Jegs and in 24 hours have parts. I spent a short time in a test cell with the Wankel Engine! It was back in the late 1960's when I worked at a company called Avco Lycoming in Stratford CT. Their main product was gas turbine helicopter engines for the Huey Helicopter used in VietNam. We had the only test cell that could do testing Wankel wanted, and what he could afford to do at that time....It was an enviormental test cell.. I also did research on the Colt and Hamilton Standard Fuel controls. We were developing our first Fan Jet Engine. The intake was tall a 6' guy could stand in the inlet, raise his hands and not touch the top of the inlet cowling. (It's the same thing as you bringing your engine to be Dynoed) and paying for the information you get. Whether the information you recieved was what you wanted or not. We were an independent Test Lab for the Wankel Engine. Don't call anyone old. That data I published on this post is accurate. I said Jeff Smith's information is old. Smokey Yunick did run the rear end upside down. Don Garlits did it in a Top Fuel Dragster. Good luck...SO KRUSO "MERRY CHRISTMAS" and "HAPPY NEW YEAR"Bob
TuffYou can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!Bob
a reverse rotation 1970-1990 V8 chevy or some fords or mopars is simple and not expensive for a marine engine builder. and for demo derby try it, experimentation is crafting and racing, or just flip the rear over. the chevy marine reverse engines use a 2 gear cam drive and a special cam and polish the crank in reverse AND a reverse rear main seal and front crank seal. with a 2 gear only cam drive the crank runs counterclockwise (looking from the front)and the special lobe cam runs in the normal clockwise direction, so a regular oil pump and distrib. works. the reverse fords and mopars use a regular timing chain set and a special cam and reverse distrib./pump gear. see federal mogul cam CS-1044m-225hp 327, 250/255/270hp 350 reverse rotation crank, gear drive cam, firing order 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8. pistons do not need to be reversed, especially aftermarket prformance pistons with centered pins. a ring and pinion gearset is completely different than a nut and bolt. a starter motor is direct current, I think you put pos on neg and she runs backward
I don't care how many times you flip that rear end over.,. it will still rotate in the same direction.Let's try this, flip the whole car on it's back.,. do the wheels spin opposite.NO!!!
When The Flag Drops.,. The Bull ***t Stops.,. P. Engineer, Engine Builder
no. we rebuilt a rear for a guy who got it out of a truck (leaf spring mounts on top). he installed it in his car (mounts on bottom) and when it was in 1st gear it went backwards. a 350 runs clockwise, (from the front) and the pinion drives the ring gear down and she goes forward. flip it over and the pinion is still driven clockwise , now the ring gear is driven up , and you go back. try it.
flipping a car on its back or screwing a bolt into a nut ?
Look,., you said flip the diff and it reverses rotation. I did that for you by flipping the car.,. did your diff reverse rotation.NO!!!
When The Flag Drops.,. The Bull ***t Stops.,. P. Engineer, Engine Builder
kruso on 12-15-12 said simply flip the rear over. he is correct. please for the love of god any and all doubters test this with a rear on a pair of jackstands. if u want to flip a car over ok picture it, the rear wheels rotating in the air, now remove the car and let the tires touch the ground, she go backward