CA$H FOR CLUNKER$: WHICH CARS ARE AT RISK

The war on grassroots motorsports and vintage collector vehicles has taken a sad turn with the passage of the "Cash for Clunkers" bailout bill in the U.S. House of Representatives.

Unless this madness is stopped, a million or more "hot roddible" V8s will be destroyed at taxpayer expense.

SO WHAT SORT OF POTENTIAL COLLECTOR CARS WOULD BE ON DEATH ROW?

http://speedzzter.blogspot.com/search/label/%22Cash%20for%20Clunkers%22

Virtually any vehicle with a V8 engine built after 1984 and before 2000 is potentially at risk of being crushed if its been in the hands of the same greedy, welfare-loving owner for a year and has insurance. Most certainly, the few V8-powered vehicles built after 2000 probably have enough "trade in" value left to exceed the $3,500-$4,500 government bid.

But scores of collectable and donor vehicles built during the [1980s and 1990s] are at risk.

For example, every Mustang GT (except the super-rare turbo 4) and all SVT Cobras with trade-in values of less than $4,500 are potential victims of the [Big Brother green] vandals, as well as competitors, such as Pontiac Trans Ams and Chevrolet Camaros. The Kelly Blue Book values suggest that V8 Mustangs built before 1996 are most significantly at risk.

Any vintage Jaguar built after 1984, including the exotic V12 XJS and the legendary six-cylinder XJ6 will qualify for crushing.

Every V8-powered Lincoln built after 1984 qualifies for the senseless slaughter, including such collector standouts as the Mark VII LSC, the 32-Valve Continental, and the Mark VIII (each of which represent types of milestone cars that will NEVER BE BUILT AGAIN UNDER THE DRACONIAN 2012-2016 CORPORATE AVERAGE FUEL ECONOMY REGULATIONS)

No Panther-platform Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury escapes. Crown Victorias, Grand Marquis, Police Interceptors, Town Cars and even Marauders fall below the arbitrary "clunker" line set in the CARS Act (these are the last full-frame passenger cars that will ever be built in America). [Similarly, RWD Impalas, Caprices, Monte Carlos, Cutlasses, Regals and Grand Prixs are all targeted. No RWD V8 Chrysler products built after 1984 escape either].

Even a few rare FWD models are targeted, such as the 1989 Pontiac Grand Prix Turbo, the Oldsmobile Aurora, and the Cadillac Allante.

But most mass-produced, smoking junkpile FWDs are ineligible. In other words the kid with the oil-burning Honda ricer (a true anti-American clunker that will never be collectable anywhere) can't trade in his beat-down, primered, unsafe-at-any-speed heap for some quick [Welfare]Ca$h. But he can trade in his Grandma's pristine, seldom-driven [V8-powered] Crown Victoria on a new KIA . . . .

If the . . . vandals get their way and the CARS WELFARE/BAILOUT ACT becomes law (which seems increasingly likely), perhaps the best resistance is to buy a 1984-1999 V8-powered potential collectable (while you still can afford to) and DRIVE IT. And be sure to send photos to [the powers that be in Washington D.C.! Burnout shots are highly recommended]

And tell them to keep their FILTHY HANDS OFF OF OUR VINTAGE V8s!

Get more details and circumvention ideas at http://speedzzter.blogspot.com/search/label/%22Cash%20for%20Clunkers%22  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

Cut the molodrama  

There is a MPG limmit to keep in mind,  I own a 90 TransAm that despite being an american V8 built between 84 and 00 still dose not qualify for this trade in program.

All cars must get less than 18 MPG (as found on the original window sticker) or it dose not qualify.

MPG figures do vary year by year as the technology changes but the 93 GT Mustang gets 22 MPG while the newer 4.6's get 24-25 MPG.

my TA is a low 20 MPG car and thats with the 350.

And since it's EPA mileage that is important that makes every 2.3L Mustang immune as well (25-27 MPG) along with any V6 or 4 banger equipped F body.



The actual number of cars that can be traded in under this program are miniscule.

Another thing to remember is that they only require the engine/drivetrain to be destroyed,  leaving the body to be salvaged or reclaimed.  

Sorry, but according to the EPA's revised "window sticker" fuel economy rating (see www.fueleconomy.gov) the best 1990 Trans Am scored 18 m.p.g. combined.

The CARS Act uses this revised "combined" figure as the qualification standard (The exact language of this provision is posted at http://speedzzter.blogspot.com).

You are citing highway only figures, which are not what the EPA is going to use to determine eligibility.  

And according to the Kelly Blue Book, the trade-in value for the average 1990 Trans Am is less than half of what the government will pay under the CARS Act as its now written.  Trade-in value is the relevant factor because thats the amount that's deducted from the agreed sale price in a new car lease or purchase.  Besides, most new car dealers have to auction vehicles more than 6-8 years old, so just dumping them in the "crusher" program is probably less of a hassle.

Therefore, I stand behind my reporting that 1984-99 V8 Trans Ams are clearly at risk. If you've owned and insured your '90 T/A for a year prior to trade, it does theoretically qualify.

Moreover, some consumers will purchase and hold cars until the very end of the program to qualify them.  And exactly how these limits will be enforced is unknown. Undoubtedly, some creative welfare-seekers will figure out how to scam the system.

The 93 Mustang GT, according to the EPA is an 18 m.p.g. combined vehicle. None of the modular motor cars exceed this rating according to www.fueleconomy.gov (I exhaustively checked this).  I did not claim any four or six-cylinder Mustangs were at risk (But who wants one of those?)  Therefore, I stand behind my reporting on the risk to 1984-99 V8 Mustangs.

As it now stands, the Cash For Clunkers Bill appropriates enough funding to buy over ONE MILLION VEHICLES.

The loss of 1,000,000 V8s will have a huge negative effect on grassroots motorsports, the used auto parts market, and Car Crafting. Affordable RWD performance cars and junkyard core engines are central to Car Crafting.  Basic economics suggests that as the supply declines, prices increase. And over on the "So Were not rich but were not stupid' thread, some already complain that big blocks are hard to get in some parts of the country.  Plenty of 460 and 454-powered light trucks will be destroyed in this program, further jacking up the costs of building a big-block-powered rod.

Also note that while the CARS Act allows for some limited "parting out" by recyclers (but it does not guarantee it), drivetrains cannot be sold as a unit, all engines regardless of condition, market demand, or rarity, must be completely destroyed, the VIN and title cancelled forever, and the unibody and all parts not otherwise removed for environmental disposal or lawfully salvaged must be crushed or shreaded.  Don't think for a minute that "rollers" or intact bodies will lawfully be available for sale to anyone but scrap metal dealers. They won't. And the environmentalist lawyers at EPA & NHTSA have thirty days after passage to write comprehensive regulations that will close up any loopholes.

Also don't think for a minute that this is a temporary program. If it doesn't work, it will be expanded to cover even more collectable cars (the fuel economy calculation methodology telegraphs this) and if it does work, the greens will ensure that it becomes enshrined to "save the planet."

Sorry that you think this is all just "melodrama," but I'll bet some heard Paul Revere in 1775 and dismissed him, too.  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

Well it's been passed into law with enough funding to buy 250,000 vehicles with money printed up or borrowed from the Chinese.

And they'll probably re-up a few more billions after September 30.

It felt kind of rebellious yesterday when I heard the news to be driving a premium-fueled, V8-powered car that the price guides suggest will be in the "clunker" strike zone.  I gave her a couple of CO2-fogging full throttle blasts in proud defiance . . . .  
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460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
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October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
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"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

i heard from a few delerships that the goverment is also not paying the dealerships very quickly for all the cars they get in. They claim this act will help for more efficent cars but the work that goes through all this is worse for the enviorment than they make up.  

i've heard the same thing
locally there is a dealer for several brands that is continuing the discounts in an attempt to keep the sales numbers up  
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the red-headed step-child of the mailing list

fuzzy dice, air shocks & N50's rule

we have a delership south of here who has sold all cars except two and hasnt been paid. the gov owes him something like 300,000 or more  

there is alot of that going on all over the country

the dealer has to pay the manufacturer for the car...then the dealer has to sell the car for whatever it can get (that's why the buyer should haggle has butt off)...then the finance company pays the dealer the amount that was financed...and then finally the buyer pays the finance company a monthly payment...and that is the money trail of new car purchases

on a local level there are dealer incenitives to the public...
nationally there are manufacturer incentives to the public...
then there are incentives given to the dealers by the manufacturers based on sales...and sometimes the manufacturers have incentives for the dealers based on service department satisfaction surveys

and then there is the lastest governmental fiasco, where the government gives the public an incentive to buy, by offering a huge "trade-in" value as long as the vehicle meets a certain criteria...

the problem lies in the fact that the govenrment is paying the "trade-in" value to the dealers out of the tax dollars from all of the tax payers, which in turn is increasing government spending and the tax burden of us all...it is the proverbial shaft and this time we all got a big piece of it  
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the red-headed step-child of the mailing list

fuzzy dice, air shocks & N50's rule

I dont want any classic crushed anymore than you guys, But if you think about it, if someone who doesn't know any better trades in a restorable classic, odds are it will never make it to the crusher.
Either some one at the dealership, someone who saw it out back at the dealership, the tow truck driver, one of the tow truck drivers friends, someone at the junkyard, someone who saw it sitting at the junkyard, or any number of gearheads who wanna know about this new ride they have never seen, or never seen move, are going to ask questions or try to pick it up. Plus the guys in the yard can always just throw a crap car in the crusher instead. 3 Honda's for 72' Vista Cruiser, No problem. Once its crushed those hippies won't know the difference.

I do realize that not everyone is going to be saved. I also wish this bill never passed, but hopefully knowing that most won't make it to the crusher, puts a damper on that knot that we all have in out stomachs.  
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It may not be the fastest or prettiest, but i can pretend

squarebackjalopy:
. . . if someone who doesn't know any better trades in a restorable classic, odds are it will never make it to the crusher.
Either some one at the dealership, someone who saw it out back at the dealership, the tow truck driver, one of the tow truck drivers friends, someone at the junkyard, someone who saw it sitting at the junkyard, or any number of gearheads who wanna know about this new ride they have never seen, or never seen move, are going to ask questions or try to pick it up. Plus the guys in the yard can always just throw a crap car in the crusher instead. 3 Honda's for 72' Vista Cruiser, No problem. Once its crushed those hippies won't know the difference.





Rescuing "Cash for Clunkers" vehicles is dicey at best.  In other words, as I posted over at Bangshift.com: "DUDE! Don't get caught scamming C4C because the fine is huge!"

"Section 1302(e)(2) provides that any person who commits a violation described in Section 1302(e)(1) shall be liable to the United States Government for a civil penalty of not more than $15,000 for each violation."

"The disposal facility may not sell or transfer the engine block of the vehicle or. . .  the drivetrain  [the transmission, drive shaft, and rear end  may only be sold as separate parts],  before they are crushed or shredded or otherwise allow the vehicle to leave the disposal facility before it is crushed or shredded."

And you've got few due process rights if you're busted: For example "the CARS Act does not require a hearing on the record before assessing civil penalties."  

And there's other super-bad Juju that can happen:

"Anyone who submits false information on these forms or otherwise violates the CARS Act or this part may not only be subject to the procedures and penalties described in this subpart, but also civil and criminal penalties. Such civil and criminal penalties may include penalties three times any amount falsely claimed to be due from the United States pursuant to the False Claims Act (31 U.S.C. 3729), or imprisonment of up to 5 years and fines of up to $250,000 (18 U.S.C. 1001)."

FIVE YEARS IN THE FREAKIN' BIG HOUSE IS HARDLY WORTH IT FOR A CHEAP BBC . . . .

"NHTSA will enforce the [CARS] Act and this implementing regulation strictly and will work with the DOT Inspector General, the Department of Justice, and other government agencies to punish violations and fraud. . . . "They even have a "snitch" line: "The public is encouraged to contact NHTSA if it suspects any fraud is occurring in connection with the CARS program. Please call 1-866-CAR-7891, which is NHTSA?s dedicated hotline for calls about the program, Monday-Friday 8 am to 10 pm, TTY: 1-800-424-9153."

(Of course NO REAL BANGSHIFTER [or Car Crafter] WOULD EVER MAKE SUCH A CALL TO THE POWERMAD "VANDAL-CRATS"  . . . )


There might also be some potential  conspiracy liability . . . . And my guess is that the feds will try to make an example of somebody, even if just to distract folks from the horrible job DOT did in running the welfare plan.

THIS IS BAD NEWS . . . SO STAY AWAY FROM IT!  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

you're right about the quantity and probability of something of value being crushed, not many people own something that can be enhanced without knowing it, unfortunately the ones that have the v6 models think they have a gold mine...

i'm not familiar enough with the clunker laws to say for sure but from what i've read here and on bangshift, there are some parts of the clunkers that must be destroyed, such as engines...funny thing, that's the first thing most of us yank anyway...

as i understand it, the c4c bill was aimed mostly at the aging suv population...the "me too" vehicle of the '90's that lingered into the new millenium...and the growing crowd of staus symbol trucks like the hummer (if you ever spent any time in the military version you'd stay as far away as possible from any variation) and the 4dr-4ft bed lincoln pick-up truck (or any truck that matches that description)...oh look mildred, lincoln started making trucks, that's the vehicle i've been waiting for. now i can take the hogs to market in a purty truck...reminds me of a quote from the eccentric mr. barnham about the birth rate of fools

this bill also relies heavily on the bandwagon effect of implied environmental stabilization as "everyone" wants to help save the planet...the latest "in" thing to do for the hippies, yuppies, tree-huggers, and the otherwise easily blinded by propaganda crowd  
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the red-headed step-child of the mailing list

fuzzy dice, air shocks & N50's rule

Ya know!!!!! More vehicles are at risk than everyone thinks!!!!!!!!! MPG might play a roll in the later vehicles, But For that $4,500 bucks and I'm not joking. The junk yards are in ca-hoots with the dealers.

If the customer does not have a vehicle to qualify and to trade. The dealer just contacts his buddy owning a bone yard and suddenly there is a vehicle that qualifies.

Take bone yards around me for example.

I've been picking apart a Cadillac Front Wheel Drive to buid my 54 Ford Wagon. Been gutting it for about a year now. How long has the program been in effect?????

This car had been there way before the program started. Engine was still in it. Suddenly when the Clunkers Program started. I went to get the engine out of it for a friend and Guess what??? It was now marked all over the car Cash For Clunker Program. Engine was suddenly painted orange and could not be sold!!!! Isn't this the ***

This bone yard used to have a lot of old cars for parts and suddenly they were all crushed to make room for all the Cash for Clunker Vehicles, that were being supplied buy the dealers.

So, ALL VEHICLES ARE AT RISK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!