Get Ready to Kiss Your Chance at a V8 Goodby

Car Craft has been mostly silent about the impending end of V8 street machining in America.

In less than a month, the die will apparently be cast that will guarantee the end of affordable V8s in new vehicles.   Without V8s, Car Crafting will either become another form of "import tuning" or will shrink into an prohibitively expensive sport based on an increasingly scarce pool of "classic" muscle cars.

Ordinary working Joes need not apply.

Of course, a few rich guys will still trade impossibly expensive rides at Barrett-Jackson.  But what, if anything, that's left of genuine high performance will be so limited in supply and so expensive that ordinary Car Crafters would have to live in their cars to afford one.

Don't believe it?

According to Barack Obama's campaign website, "Obama will double fuel economy standards within 18 years."

Apparently, that means that he supports an increase in the Corporate Average Fuel Economy Standard from the recently-enacted 35 miles per gallon to SEVENTY miles per gallon! (Even if Obama merely wanted to "double" the old CAFE standard, he'd be imposing by big government mandate a FIFTY-SIX miles per gallon average on all light vehicles sold in the United States of America)

Such radical fuel economy proposals would plunge the world of high-performance and sports cars into an age of banishment far worse than the "dark ages" of the 1970s.

A tiny three-cylinder turbo diesel would be the "Shelby GT 500" or "Dodge Viper" "musclecar" of the Obama age of government-controlled motoring.

If Car Crafters still remain skeptical of Obama's intention to destroy all semblance of automotive freedom in America, his next proposal ought to remove all doubt: "Obama supports implementation of a . . . system to reduce carbon emissions by . . . 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050."

Such a "system" would undoubtedly target the new and used parts supplies for keeping "classic" and "special interest" motorcars on the road (if not the vehicles themselves) as energy-thirsty industries sought to "offset" industrial uses of power through "cap and trade" deals. Chevron's infamous car crushing program of the early 1990s is just a harbinger of what's sure to follow if "President Obama" attempts to roll back energy use to EIGHTY PERCENT LESS than 1990.

The automotive aftermarket won't go unscathed, either.  

Energy conservation standards will likely be expanded to stop "tampering" that potentially increases greenhouse gas emissions.  In other words, huge swaths of bolt-on parts could be regulated out of existence.

Many smaller aftermarket companies and shops will see huge tax increases and other expensive mandates which will be passed along to a shrinking customer base as higher prices.  

Fewer new OEM performance cars will mean lower demand for hop-up parts.  Reduced sales volumes will mean higher prices, less selection and slower product development times.

The forces that hate Car Crafting and all other automotive hobbies are betting that our sport will die from attrition and escalating costs.  And they're probably right if we don't stand together to stop the Government from taking our freedoms away.  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

the previous post provided by the same people who have said that al gore would close the coal mines if he wins... and of course... the famous... i have a plan to balance the budget...  as stated by the elder candidate just last night...  

fewer new performance cars will be the fault of the cost of gasoline.. and the availability of the people to buy a new car and have a decent paying job to make the car payments... house payments, insurance payments and the ability to walk into a bank and get a car loan...

with free trade... it frees up business to go for the cost savings of lower pay rates... it removes tariffs that protect your jobs at home...

this all works great for the CEO's  and the board of directors...  but if there are no jobs here do to free trade... who is going to be able to buy a car... or a loaf of bread...


waynep712....  

Now wait a second . . . .

No reasonable person can deny that Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations have done more to drive up the cost of RWD V-8 automobiles and drive down the supplies of them that temporary spikes in gasoline prices.

Does anyone really believe that it costs $8,000 more to fit a 2010 Camaro with a port-injected pushrod V8 than it does to outfit one with a direct-injected OHC V6?

GM and the dealers can gouge V-8 buyers because they know that the maximum number of V-8s they can sell is limited by CAFE. It's the same with Ford and Chrysler.  Just check the MSRPs for Mustang and Challenger if you don't believe it.

BTW, Ford sells the 700 h.p. supercharger-ready 4.6 Aluminator crate engine for around $7,000. But then they sell the 5.4 GT500 engine for around double that!  Why? Probably just to cover up some of the price gouging that's occurring with the GT500.  

As the CAFE standard increases to the scheduled 35 m.p.g. (or to 50 or 70 m.p.g.) the supply of V-8s will shrink and the price (gouging) will increase exponentially.  

It'll be a sad day when you have to buy a Hyundai or a Lexus or a BWM just to get a "good ol' American V-8."   But that's where we're headed.

BTW, both of the candidates claim to be in favor of "free trade."  It's just that one of them thinks he can unilaterally impose U.S. emissions and labor standards on other countries.  That will certainly drive up the costs of nearly everything we buy.  

Of course, if I can't get a ##$@% V-8, I'm pretty much not going to care anymore . . . .

(Maybe somebody will sell little 1 - 2 liter V-8s in their government-approved microcars just to help us dying old Car Crafters sort of remember what freedom and fun sounded like)  
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460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
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October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
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"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

Well if we have to do this 50 m.p.g. thing, a 2 liter mini-V8 would help some of us cope.

Just imagine ... a 2-liter DOHC V8 with cylinder deactivation (that'd make it a hyper-efficient one-liter at part throttle), variable cam lift and timing, a screamin' redline and high-boost forced induction (alcohol-enriched) in a smaller, lighter-weight RWD car . . . .

Maybe even add in one of those 42-volt starter-alternators or an electric assist motor so we could shut it down at stop lights when we're just commuting and not cruising or racing . . . .

I suspect what we'll get are a bunch of FWD turbo fours and sixes.  Better than nothing, but not as good as a similarly-sized V8 driving the CORRECT SET OF WHEELS.

And you can spray about anything for fun and profit (if "the Man" doesn't ban N02 as a greenhouse gas).

I also suspect that sport bikes will surge in popularity if the clamp-down on Car Crafting/Hot Rodding gets too harsh.

There will still be fun. Just not as much and not as cheap.  
*****
TURBO TED --Internationally known as the "John Force of the Yugo Racing Association."

Sergeant-at-Arms and immediate Past President of the SoAL Yugo Owners Group.

I'm sorry...when did car craft become about building up BRAND NEW ENGINES?????

Last I checked...Gen I small block Chevy's were still wildly popular.  

In any case...I recently read an article that was originally published in 1977...said all V8's would be dead by 1985. Guess that means we're long overdue huh?  
68 Olds Cutlass ~ 350 Rocket
85 Delta 88 ~ 425 Rocket
02 Silverado 4X4 ~ 5.3L

thats what we have SEMA for...

trust me...they are way ahead of us on this one....


IIRC,its a 6.7 billon dollar aftermarket (IIRC,2005 numbers)...


not really worried...


al  

CSIROC, V8s WOULD HAVE BEEN DEAD if the Reagan Administration hadn't backed off increases in CAFE.  A stupid, car-hating old guy named Senator Bryan from Nevada tried to push through a huge CAFE increase for several years.  

And Car Craftable V8 cars almost died anyway. For example, Ford's product planners were going to kill the 5.0 and the RWD Mustang in the mid-1980s because of an expected increase in fuel economy standards.   When that didn't happen, public and union pressure saved the RWD Mustang & the 5.0.

Where would we be now if that would have happened?

GM's abandonment the RWD G-Body and the radical downsizing of its large cars in the mid-1980s was also a planned response to expected increases in CAFE that never happened.  GM also kept delaying and delaying revamping of the RWD F-Body platform, rushing through a flawed reskin at the last minute when CAFE plans stabilized.

Keeping the fuel economny standards at about the same level for two decades gave Detroit time to catch up, which allowed for a limited revival of V8s in performance cars (they never came back to ordinary mass market sedans, though).

The LSx that CC seems to be dedicated to these days is a "brand new engine."  Moreover to assume that Car Crafting can survive without OEM support is short-sighted.

In twenty years, what will Car Crafters be building if the OEMs are forced to kill off all RWD V8s to comply with  "carbon cap & trade" and a 50+ m.p.g. fuel economy average?  

Attrition and the tin worm means that the supply of V8-ready RWDs will continue to decline.  Moreover, even under the current conditions, junkyard supplies of suitable engines and transmissions are drying up.  It will only get worse when big utilities start buying up "gas guzzlers" to "trade" (crush) for mmore CO2 credits.  

Also remember that still-developing EPA greenhouse gas regulations could harshly limit modification (they call it "tampering") of the cars that are left.  More horsepower means more CO2. And nitrous oxide is a much more "heat-trapping" greenhouse gas than CO2 when released into the atmosphere.  If the radical greeniacs obtain unfettered power in Washington -- look out!

If you want to stick your head in the sand and believe that there's an unlimited supply of '55 Chevys and '69 Camaros for future generations of Car Crafters, that's your choice.   Some of us, however, see what's developing and have to sound the alarm.

Our narrow "special interest" in V8 Car Crafting isn't the half of what's at risk.  See  http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122420205889842989.html?mod=rss_opinion_main#printMode  
*****
TURBO TED --Internationally known as the "John Force of the Yugo Racing Association."

Sergeant-at-Arms and immediate Past President of the SoAL Yugo Owners Group.

Another example of how "it" almost happened . . . Lee Iacocca was running commercials in the early 1980s about how the new Chrysler was going to become the first all-FWD manufacturer in America.  Even Carroll Shelby was building horrible FWD four-bangers for Chrysler. Development stopped on RWD and V8s. Only when CAFE regulations stabilized did Bob Lutz, Shelby and others start wild, expensive, limited-production stuff like the Viper (which remains totally irrelevant to ordinary Car Crafters).

Query:  If fuel economy standards were already 50 m.p.g. do you think we'd ever have seen stuff like SRT-8s, RWD Challengers, RWD 2010 Camaros, GT500s, V8 Mustang GTs, etc.?

You younger Car Crafters ought to listen to those of us who were around when they killed the first musclecar era.  Those who do not know history are DOOMED TO REPEAT IT!  
*****
TURBO TED --Internationally known as the "John Force of the Yugo Racing Association."

Sergeant-at-Arms and immediate Past President of the SoAL Yugo Owners Group.

Well said Turbo Ted.

As the good Doc said over on the Hot Rod forum "We are on a greased slide back to the 'great automotive depression' days of the 1970s."  

The danger is real.

As I wrote on my blog about the growing "greeniac" madness:

"Imagine how much fun motoring will be in 10 or 20 years if:

--Fuel economy standards become so high that no V8s can be produced.

--The OEMs "can" all V8 crate engines and other performance parts out of fear of "carbon" litigation.

[Some lawyers believe Obama will pack the federal courts with liberal, activist judges who will allow such lawsuits. And with a President Obama likely to appoint 2 or 3 Supreme Court justices (who will ignore the Constitution as written and adopt virtually every big government "nanny state" liberal special-interest power-grab as the "living Constitutional law of the land"), there will be no "check" on the court's power to sue auto manufacturers and the automotive aftermarket into "compliance" with Obama's carbon reductions.  That means "goodby" factory crate engines and other "pollution-creating" auto parts.]

--Draconian "carbon use" taxes (sort of like the punitive cigarette taxes smokers now routinely pay under the various "tobacco lawsuit settlements") on gasoline, gasoline-burning equipment and the replacement parts for such equipment are enacted to curb "excess" emissions. (Far-fetched? I just read Al Gore (D) is now pushing a "carbon use" tax as a replacement for payroll taxes!)

--Harsh "clunker" legislation is passed, aimed at clearing the roads of C02-emitting "old" cars and drying up parts supplies for them.

[Anyone who has followed UNOCAL's scrappage program in Cali already knows that "cap and trade" carbon schemes will eventually result in utilities buying up "junk" cars to "trade" for more emissions]

--Increased state- or industry-sponsored "crusher" programs (such as UNOCAL's infamous one) are instituted in settlement of the lawsuits.

--Increased restrictions on registering "kit" and "continuation" cars (such as the "new" 1969 Camaros built from Chinese uni-body stampings or even "new" 1932 Ford-based "street rods") are enacted to force people into state-approved, factory-built economy cars.

[The Nader-trained auto safety/emissions bureaucrats that Obama will appoint will likely force such regulations on the states either through litigation over exceeding pollution levels (remember, C02 is "pollution" now), withholding federal matching funds, and/or increased enforcement]

--Competition for the shrinking number of "collector" cars drives prices even higher than they already are today.

--Lawyers and regulators begin turning their focus on extorting payments from racing venues, tuners and aftermarket supply companies for "carbon pollution."

[Just imagine an Obama-staffed Justice Department with billions to spend, a phalanx of rabid Sierra Club enviro-lawyers, and eminent domain power]

--More force-fed propaganda fills the public school curriculum about the harms that motorsports and "gas guzzlers" (i.e. performance cars and race-car tow vehicles) allegedly cause to the environment (as if it couldn't get any worse)

IN SHORT, ALL CAR CRAFTERS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY JOIN THE SEMA ACTION NETWORK AND REFUSE TO VOTE FOR ANY DANGEROUS, LIBERAL CAR-HATERS AND FREEDOM-GRABBERS, whereever they find them ("from the White House to the Outhouse").

However, just hoping for the best, blindly relying on SEMA, and then voting for the very people that SEMA will have to fight makes no sense at all.  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

There was some other stuff that Speedzzter said in his blog that bears repeating:

"Without new performance cars (that someday become more affordable USED cars and create a trickle-down of parts in the aftermarket), the whole grassroots motorsports movement takes huge steps back to the days when the automakers didn't offer anything interesting or helpful to performance enthusiasts."

"Old guys who remember 1969-1975 have seen some of this before. For example, FoMoCo was kowtowed by Congressional hostility into killing virtually its entire factory racing and "Muscle Parts" programs in November 1970. It took TWELVE YEARS to get things even partially back on track. The lesson is that if the OEMs can't make a "business case" for serving racers, "hot rodders" and performance enthusiasts, they will throw us under the bus without a second throught."  
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460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
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October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

Hmmmm...words I caught in that...

"If"
"Imagine"
"Almost"

And do I really need to remind people that the dark days of the 70's were also the period where muscle cars were most affordable.  Hey, I'm all for picking up a CTS-V or GT500 for a couple grand...send em my way!

Way too paranoid...feel bad for you guys.  
68 Olds Cutlass ~ 350 Rocket
85 Delta 88 ~ 425 Rocket
02 Silverado 4X4 ~ 5.3L

We've still got a chance to stop it.

(A small, selfish part of me is just waiting to say "I told you so" when the next generation of GT500s and CTS-Vs is sacrificed on the "progressive" green altar of M.P.G./Carbon emission standards.  

On the other hand, I didn't really enjoy saying that back in 1975-1982.  

And as someone who experienced the collapse of the first musclecar era first-hand, I can tell you there was a lot more people into Car Crafting and a lot more affordable street machines on the road back then than there is now, so perhaps we haven't recovered as much from the "automotive depression" of the 1970s as some think we have).

Maybe CSIROC will make out like a bandit on used muscle, but what will the next generation of Car Crafters buy ten years after all the American V8s and RWD cars are killed?   Maybe Car Crafting a Smart-phonebooth-on-Wheels or an FWD Prius will satisfy them (if all "tampering" . . . I mean "tuning" isn't completely outlawed by then).

Just like the gun owners have discovered over the past four decades, the time to stop this nonsense is before it builds unstoppable momentum.

BTW, CSIROC, I expect that the prices on V8 muscle cars will dramatically escalate when Detroit is forced to build only tiny four cylinders.  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

The key to all of this is 5th grade government class.  Our system has checks and balances.  Who ever the president might be matters but not as much as you would think.  Now if congress passes these laws so that they can be approved we may have a problem.  The president can say I'll do this and I'll do that but that doesn't mean it will happen as we all know.  Now if he was elected supreme dictator with absolute power I would be worried.

Also lets say these acts are placed into law.  They usually take a few years to take effect because time has to be allowed for companys to switch over production.  By the time this takes place we are maybe in year 3 of the new president's term.  Plus we have already had another oppurtunity to elect state reps and senators.  So at year 4 there is another chance to remove said president.

I am only 30 years old but it seems that as long as I can remember I have heard about the demise of our hobby.  Whether it be stricter emissions or safety standards someone is always crying the end is near at every election.  Its just another chance to push for a particular canidate through fear and misdirection.  The aftermarket is alive for a reason.  Just look at the parts we have today compared to parts from 20 years ago.  If the aftermarket needs to they can adapt and produce parts that will lower emissions and improve mileage.  They did it to get cars to pass inspection in California and they can do it everywhere else.  It just takes a little time and patience.  

"what will the next generation of Car Crafters buy ten years after all the American V8's and RWD cars are killed??"

I dunno...cars from the 60's like I did?  Prices of those are going to drop like a rock as baby boomers start passing...even if they don't...prices are reasonable for the odd-ball (ie non-Chevy) cars.  Cars from the 70's and 80's are still V8 RWD...buy those.  Why you think people have to buy 20 year old cars (or whatever), and nothing older is beyond me.

"I expect that the prices on V8 muscle cars will dramatically escalate when Detroit is forced to build only tiny four cylinders."

A number of issues with this statement.  

1) Detroit will be lucky to survive the downturn in the market.  The reason for their troubles is not a lack of high performance offerings, but good transportation for a number of years.  They need to correct that first...THEN worry about the small group of performance enthusiasts.  To think the world revolves around Mustangs and Camaros is comical.

2) You are assuming gas prices stay constant.  If that happens, no one will be for a rise in CAFE...not the manufacturers (because there is no demand for such vehicles)...not the consumers (who won't want to pay for the tech or downgrade their vehicle)



Sorry...but you're speculating...nothing more.  Doom and gloom scenarios are everywhere, are you concerned about the super volcano under Yellowstone??  How about global warming??  How about the next ice age??  Or how about the pending economic collapse that only a 700 billion dollar bailout of wall street will fix- oh wait...it didn't fix anything did it?

Sorry...I'm not going to cry wolf until there is actually a wolf at the gate...  
68 Olds Cutlass ~ 350 Rocket
85 Delta 88 ~ 425 Rocket
02 Silverado 4X4 ~ 5.3L

Stude,

Checks and balances go out the window if the "greeniac" left controls all three branches of government. Even a 5th grader ought to be able to figure that one out.

What you fail to understand is that federal regulation and tax policy could wipe out much of the aftermarket before the 2012 election.   For example, when the EPA decided to turn its attention to "catalyic converter test pipes," they disappeared in no time.

And nearly anybody who has modified an emission-controlled car with anything other than direct replacement parts is probably already in violation of federal "tampering" laws. Under the worst-case scenario, the environmental left would push for more enforcement.   But what's likely to happen is an attack on the "supply side" (more "clunker laws," more "crusher" programs, tighter restrictions on aftermarket parts, more IM inspections, more withholding highway funds to states without strict "anti-tampering" programs, etc.).

If you're only thirty years old, you've only lived through the Reagan era of deregulation, with some modest Clean Air "tweaks" during the first Bush and Clinton administrations.   You don't remember what it WAS like before and you simply fail to appreciate the threat of huge increases in CAFE and new restrictions on carbon emissions.

Certainly, choice and quality have improved in the aftermarket under the relatively stable regulatory environment since 1980.  And CAD/CAM advances have made a plethora of new parts available.  But, radical changes in regulations and reduced supplies of "raw material" (cars that are Car Craftable) will have a negative impact (costs will increase, fewer people will undertake the hassles of Car Crafting).

Just think about what we already know.  A simple exhaust header for an old car is still relatively inexpensive.   But headers for a lot of newer cars cost four times as much?   Why is that?  

Carbon emissions are not something that you can just "adapt" around. Carbon production is proportionate to fuel consumption (on anything but hydrogen fuel). Fuel consumption is proportionate to horsepower.   In other words, cutting carbon means cutting horsepower.  It's that simple.

Now, are there more efficient ways to make big power. Sure. Smaller, high boost engines use less fuel on average than larger naturally-aspirated engines of the same power rating (of course they tend to use MORE fuel at peak power).   50+ m.p.g. CAFE standards (which WILL HAPPEN if the left controls the presidency and Congress) leaves almost no room for any engines larger than 2 liters.  Supply and demand suggests that the remaining "big engines" (if any) will be super-expensive.

And given the cash-strapped condition of all American automakers (GM might not even survive 2009 at the current cash "burn rate"), the path of least resistance is more likely than a pursuit of a technological breakthrough (at least in the short run). That means at least a generation of four-cylinder FWD econoboxes and cutting way back on RWD and V8s (Don't believe me?  Just ask Bob Lutz)

Don't think that the left hasn't learned from the "circumvention" that occurred with the shift to trucks and suvs in response to the 1980s fuel economy standards.  That door will slam this time.  

What will happen is that demand for "emissions exempt" cars will increase among Car Crafters and supplies WILL decrease.  Already, many Car Crafters will never have the opportunity to own an affordable "real" muscle car and have to make do with stuff that would have been laughed off the street in the 1960s.  If the supply of "new muscle" is outlawed or so restricted as to be insignificant, these pressures will only get worse.

And the kit car/reproduction street rod markets are RIPE for an emissions crackdown.  (Don't think the Sierra Club types aren't licking their chops at the prospect)

Some of you apparently think a government micro-managed four-cylinder FWD future is okay.   I guess we're all about to find out.

Even if liberal control only lasts until 2012, the die will be cast and it will be hard for a few million greasy hot rodders and car collectors to "turn back the clock on carbon "cap and trade" taxes, crusher laws, a 50+ m.p.g. CAFE standard and other attacks on traditional Car Crafting.   I mean we apparently can't agree to "stop the clock from turning" in the first place!

I rather think that those of you who don't want to see the problem are like those "head-in-the-sand" chumps in the U.K. who went along with gun registration.   They looked pretty dumb when the government later came back to pick their guns.

I hope I'm completely wrong, but I'm not willing to bet my automotive freedoms on it!  
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460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
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October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
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"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad