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So Were not rich but we arent stupid  
bowtie6872
User | Posts: 151 | Joined: 09/04
Posted: 01/10/05
10:07 PM

ya but did they show what sbf head flow the most after a porter is done with them???


and all the stories you listed sound like cubic dollar builds...  cool  ...but not for the reg. guy with bills..


why!who  showed ya that explorer 5.0 heads are cheap high flowing head...


I'll give ya a hint it wasn't a all ford mag..


and the most n o s stories...  um there are many mags with tons more than that one(mag) ran or will run in the next 20 years..


not diss in' ya  but  u don't need to get in people faces about stuff...


and who featured a 2.3 turbo pinto....  um chevy craft....lol

If it won't move,FORCE it,If it breaks,


IT needed replacing anyways!!!!!!!!!!

 

 
EthelkilledFred
Enthusiast | Posts: 355 | Joined: 02/04
Posted: 01/11/05
12:48 AM

Who's blah,blah,blah? MM&FF  Who did the blab,blah,blah? MM&FF  Who got 900+ blah,blah,blah? MM&FF  Who blah,blah,blah in a fox-bod? MM&FF  Who did the first blah,blah,blah ("blah,blah,blah")?  MM&FF. Who's blah,blah,bla. MM&FF  Who's tested blah,blah,blah?  MM&FF  Who did the blah,blah,blah MM&FF Who did the first blah,blah,blah story . . . .


If MM&FF is so great, why are you here, and why are you preaching to the choir? People on this board own and like a variety of cars, that was a main complaint listed here that CC was lacking in. Readers want to see more Fords, Mopars, AMCs, Buicks, Cads, Olds, Studibakers, Anglias, Henry 'J's, you get the picture.


Who was the first to put a 408 SBF in a fox body and run in the 8's with a magizine project car, MM&FF not. It was CC who put them to shame for doing it first with Matt King at the helm of the this rag just a few years ago.........



 

 

 
dr511scj_1
Enthusiast | Posts: 636 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 01/11/05
07:56 AM

I don't really want to get into the middle of this thing about MM&FF v. CC.  But I do recall that Joe Morgan's awesome turbo 2.3 Pinto was featured in the April 1999 issue of Hot Rod, not CC.


Matt King's squeezed 408W Mustang was awesome . . . but we see what happened to him! We got Jeff "Chevelle" Smith and the return of "Chevy Craft." 


I think Freiburger has the huevos to stand up to whomever demands the "Chevy first" mentality and could (if he wanted to) run a


JY BIG BLOCK TURBO in CC


If its not TURBOCHARGED, you're not finished yet . . . .

 

 
chevysxz
User | Posts: 82 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 01/11/05
11:32 AM

Stop hacking up Fred's bod in the wood chipper and pay attention!


Fonzie from 2Fast 2Furious (AmericanMuscle13) said MM&FF had more body kits and lambo doors than hard core tech.  Yeah, RIGHT. That's what my word was about.


Anybody around 5.0s knows that MM&FF is OG and legit to the core.  Th' Fonz just doesn't get it.   


CC is about old school carbs and chevys. Anybody that can read knows it.  King's mustang must have got in while the bosses weren't looking.  Even the King's piece had a carb.


I like to see what the other teams (MoPar, GM) are up to so I know how much to bring and how many cars to give.  Knowledge is POWER!


GrandStangMaster Buzz

 

 
chevysxz
User | Posts: 82 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 01/11/05
11:43 AM

Fugetaboutit Doc.


Friedbug is about as likely to do a GEO METRO project as he is to spill on JY turbos.


Think, Dogg, Think!  How long would it take to fab up all that tubing and #$% ya need fo a turbo?  You really think some Cali writer's got time fo all that?  And with all that free swag they get from Edelbrock and all, why are they going to stress over some hacked-together JY turbo garbage?  No freebies from the junk man, Doc.  He don't buy no ads, "foo!"


You want a BBF turbo, then go build one. Maybe if it's legit, they will give you a snapshot in "Readers Rides."  Or print yo punk little 12sec slip.


 Just shut up about it.  Go watch some NOPI . . . .


GrandStangMaster Buzz





Edited 1/11/2005 1:23 pm by chevysxz  

 
AmericanMuscle13
Enthusiast | Posts: 534 | Joined: 09/03
Posted: 01/12/05
10:00 PM

I actually sat down and read one of those articles you posted tonight.  The guy had a lot of work into that TA, but it hauled pretty good.  It's something I have the equipment to do at home, but I don't really want tubes all over my engine bay. The one thing I was wondering is where people find diesel motors in junkyards?  I've walked through a couple of our local yards and haven't seen any.  The chrysler turbo cars get crushed lol.  Interesting article though.

Mitch

I wonder if the yuppies who wear "Von Dutch" clothes even know who Von Dutch was?

 

 
7MGTEJoe
User | Posts: 68 | Joined: 05/04
Posted: 01/12/05
11:03 PM

You can get lucky and find a big 3 diesel truck in a regular wrecking yard but most diesel engines are in dedicated yards (at least where I live). I started asking around at the local diesel shops when I was shopping for a bigger intercooler and was sent to one (Atlas Truck Wrecking). The tractor trailer turbos I looked at are too big for anything but mountain motors. But the flat bed and box truck stuff looks about the right size for automotive applications (I took my intercooler from an Isuzu NPR truck).

Joe

 

 
chevysxz
User | Posts: 82 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 01/13/05
08:17 AM

That Schwitzer 3LM could be off a farm tractor.  Them farmer rednex trade that stuff all the time fo buildin pullers.


GrandStangMaster Buzz

 

 
dr511scj_1
Enthusiast | Posts: 636 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/22/05
10:10 AM

Just in case anyone in the plush confines of the CC executive editorial  suite has forgotten this awesome thread . . . . On October 2, 2003, Dr511scj suggested:


"The JY (Junkyard) turbo people might disagree!"


" I'm thinking a couple of junkyard Powerstroke turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler into a double pumper on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."


"Of course if Camaro Craft does it, they will probably cobble up a couple of T-3s on a "smokin'" 305 SBC or something."


 


HMMM?  Still a GREAT idea for the NEW HOT, FAST, REAL JUICY CC . . . .



If its not TURBOCHARGED, you're not finished yet . . . .

 

 
71_bigblocknova
Guru | Posts: 930 | Joined: 09/04
Posted: 03/22/05
04:21 PM

you ever think some people dont see a need to turbo charge everything?  


 
dr511scj_1
Enthusiast | Posts: 636 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/23/05
08:31 AM

Dude!  Your response would make more sense if CC ever turbocharged ANYTHING!  The last time I remember CC doing a turbo project was in the bad old days before Freiburger's first term as editor and it was a four cylinder IMPORT! YIKES!


How is taking a break from ramming the "Gen III/IV" and other things Chevy down our throats to do a homebuilt BIG BLOCK TURBO PROJECT bad for anybody?


To paraphrase Tom from "Dream Car Garage: "Does you NEED a big block turbo? No.  Do you WANT one?  Apparently not 71_bigblocknova." 


What's the prob, bro? Afraid you'll learn something new?


If its not TURBOCHARGED, you're not finished yet . . . .

 

 
dr511scj_1
Enthusiast | Posts: 636 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/25/05
02:18 PM

December 30, 2004, Dr511scj offered this CREATIVE IDEA:


"How often do we need to say it . . . .


JY BIG BLOCK TURBO! (And hopefully on something other than a bellybutton SBC/BBC).


Wouldn't it be BITCHIN' to snag a Pull-a-Part 455+ cube "lump," ram in some forged "blower" pistons in a quickie rebuild, girdle the bottom end (if necessary), slip in a streetable "juice stick," and weld up a homemade turbo kit with off-the-shelf shorties, a brace of truck turbos (remember "turbos are for diesels"), some mail-order mandrel bends and a JY/eBay intercooler. For extra fun, dust off the "how to build water injection" article CC ran in about 1980 and cobble together a budget water-alcohol injector . . . .


Blow through the carb if you must to keep the no-tech, no-coin natives happy. Even use PVC for the cold side (Sitar proved these concepts nearly a decade ago)


How awesome would it be for CC's JY Turbo to dyno in the 1000-hp neighborhood with Jay Leno's mega-buck Turbo Toronado?


Come on, CC!  Show 'em the real meaning of "Got Boost!"



If its not TURBOCHARGED, you're not finished yet . . . .

 

 
71_bigblocknova
Guru | Posts: 930 | Joined: 09/04
Posted: 03/30/05
12:42 PM

no, my response does make sense. All you talk about it turbos and fords. Maybe CC doesn't want to do a turbo big block. No, I'm not afraid of something new, and I do plan on adding a Procharger in the near future, but I don't plan on a turbo as space is a minimum under the hood of a 71_bigblocknova with factory a/c.  


 
dr511scj_1
Enthusiast | Posts: 636 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/30/05
02:10 PM

I think a Procharged BBC is cool (Procharger did one about 10 years ago in a baby blue Camaro --blowing through the carb-- that made over 800 hp), but I think you'd get more midrange power, a broader powerband and more adjustability with intercooled turbos . . . .


I write about the stuff I think would fit into the LOUD, FAST, REAL . . . INEXPENSIVE format of CC.


Both Fords and V8 turbos get neglected by magazines for different reasons. 


Most carb-on-small-block guys don't know anything about turbos and believe they are too hard set up and are too expensive. Or that they are only for tiny imports. Or that they make too much "heat."  Racers and sanctioning bodies fear turbos because they know that whenever turbo power is allowed to compete, it dominates.


No magazine covers homebuilt turbo V8s for the street/strip market. All of the stories I see are about: (a) expensive commercial kits for small-blocks; (b) 2000-horse set-ups run by professional heads-up racers (with few details revealed on the combination); (c) build-ups on engines with 231-cubes or less (mostly imports but a few old Buicks); or (d) the occasional "freak" story about some tinkerer using junkyard T3s with less than spectacular results (I call these the "turbo vaccine" stories because the skeptical reader invarably thinks "I can beat THAT with my double-pumper and a 150-shot" Anybody with any knowledge of turbos immediately knows why the JY combo didn't work . . . and what JY combo would work, if tried!).


On the Chevy bias: Chevy has done such a great job flooding the world with cheap parts that some morons rip out perfectly-buildable  and interesting Brand-X engines for a GMPP crate lump! (admittedly, Ford ignored the street rod market for about 30 years, squandering the huge lead built by the flathead). 


Old school advertisers like to keep promoting the SBC and its relatives because they've already done the R&D necessary and have made their huge investment "bets" on GM parts.  Considering that it probably costs $100,000 to develop, pattern and cast up a new intake manifold or cylinder head, preserving the status quo makes some business sense. The death of traditional local speed shops in favor of homogenized discount mail order stores further stifles creativity and innovation.


I think CC can either keep doing the same old stories (i.e. FOLLOW), or it can investigate other budget alternatives (LEAD). 


The BIG BLOCK V8 turbo story I keep suggesting is revolutionary in that many will see big-cube turbo engines are a viable, low-cost alternative to more expensive mountain motors and are more flexible (and streetable) than huge N20 or traditional drag racing combinations.  As Zora Arkus-Duntov wrote:


"Like all people, hot rodders are attracted by novelty. However, bitter experience has taught them that new development is costly and long, and therefore they are extremely conservative. From my observation, it takes an advanced hot rodder some three years to stumble toward the successful development of a new design."


CC needs to educate "conservative" Car Crafters about turbos. Not in the "buy-my-overpriced-kit" advertiser-driven approach which has been common since about 1979, but in a LOUD, FAST, REAL hands-on, experimental way.  Most CC readers build their cars a paycheck at a time and can't afford expensive R&D. But that's CC's job!  That's why we buy the magazine! (and we'd all look silly reading Ladies Home Journal or Cosmo while on the can)


Turbos make sick power on small-bore engines (commonly over 2 hp per cube) and monster torque on Big 3 diesels. There's no technical reason why this can't also happen everyday on American engines sized more to the liking of traditional Car Crafters (other than perhaps the physical limits of OEM blocks).


If its not TURBOCHARGED, you're not finished yet . . . .

 

 
dr511scj_1
Enthusiast | Posts: 636 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/30/05
05:57 PM

One revision: "(admittedly, Ford ignored the street rod, grassroots circle track and sportsman drag racing markets for  30+ years, squandering the huge lead built by the flathead). 


An explanation for our younger Car Crafters:


Ford's flathead V8 was "the standard" grassroots motorsports powerplant in the 1940s and early 1950s.


When GM released the first of the high-compression Kettering V8s (Olds and Cadillac), the flathead was challenged but not toppled. Chrysler's early hemi also emerged as a contender, but the new OHV V8s were not universally accepted by grassroots Car Crafters for a variety of reasons. 


Hudson, Oldsmobile and Offenhauser dominated "professional" racing in the USA at the time. Chevy was an old man's car then, saddled with nothing but inline sixes derided as "Stovebolts."


Ford's first OHV V8--the infamous Y-Block--beat the SBC to market by a year, but it was not easily retrofited into earlier Fords. Few high performance parts were available. It also suffered from a somewhat odd design.


Ed Cole--an engineering genius-- was busy in Chevrolet's camp, working on the new SBC. Admittedly, the Chevy design was cheaper, lighter and simpler than the Y-Block, the Olds, the Hemis and the Cadillac. It also would also easily swap in place of a flathead. 


But the real key to the SBC's success began with Zora Arkus-Duntov, another engineering and marketing genius who was attracted to GM by the new Corvette. Zora believed that to save the floundering Corvette, the factory had to supply performance parts for the new "RPO V8." (Perhaps more instrumental in saving the Corvette was the introduction of Ford's Thunderbird in 1955 --an event which bought Zora time enough to implement his V8 plans)


Chevrolet also jumped into factory-sponsored racing with the Corvette and the "Motormatic" '55 Chevrolet.   Although it had few successes, its exploits were heavily promoted in advertising.  Chrysler's Hemi was starting to dominate stock car racing, but Ford created a racing organization which became the foundation for much of what we take for granted in NASCAR today.  However, the Ford approach was always geared to directly supporting a limited number of professional racers with specialized racing parts and cash.


In 1957, Ford was well on its way to winning the "Grand National" Championship (even the legendary Smokey Yunick wrenched for Ford during part of '57) when GM's president proposed a BAN on factory-sponsored racing and speed contests through an automobile manufacturers' association.  Ford's boss, Henry Ford II, was duped into signing on to the ban. He immediately killed the racing program. The leftovers survived as the Holman-Moody Company.


It didn't help that Ford's right hand man at the time was the stodgy Robert McNamara. McNamara--who later plunged us deeper into Vietnam as John Kennedy's secretary of defense--didn't understand high performance and dreamed of more sensible cars like the 1960 Ford Falcon, and of smaller front-wheel-drive models. Volkswagen, not Corvette, interested McNamara.


Chevy's in-house racers, such as Zora and Vince Piggins, took advantage of corporate bureaucracy to "keep the back door open." They kept on developing thinly-veiled racing parts, many of which were sold at cheap prices to grassroots racers.  


Both Ford and Chevy introduced "big block" engines in the late 50s.  Ford's superior "FE" spelled the end of development for the already dated Y-Block.  Ford racers were forced to switch architectures twice in less than ten years.  But Zora hated Chevy's heavy "W" truck motor and focused most of the development money on the Corvette-friendly SBC.


The Racing Ban was a notorious failure.  Pontiac's  Bunkie Knudsen openly and obviously cheated on it.  Without serious factory competition, Pontiacs began rampaging at the strip and on the oval track. MoPar ramped up activity in NHRA, mainly through a group of factory engineers called "the Ramchargers."  Zora and Vince kept pumping out large quantities of "special" parts for Corvettes.  Bill Mitchell funded a SBC-powered "Sting Ray" racing sports car out of his own pocket. It was merely a new body hiding a stillborn factory racer Zora built before the Ban.  Mitchell's design later became the basis for the 1963-67 Corvette Stingray.


In 1962, after being rebuffed by Enzo Ferrari and seeing how he'd been duped in 1957, Henry Ford II publically repudiated the Racing Ban.  Thus began the most incredible factory assault on motorsports the world had ever seen. Before it was over in 1970, Ford, or Ford-associated operations such as Shelby American, had won virtually every major motorsports championship. And the Ford-funded Cosworth DFV V8 became the dominant international open-wheel competition engine for another decade after that.


But in 1963, GM's board reigned in its Racing Ban cheating--somewhat. Overt efforts, such as at Pontiac and the emerging responses to Ford and MoPar at Chevrolet were killed. One survivor was the MARK II/MARK IV V8, a loose revision of Chevrolet's failed "W" motor.  This 1963 "mystery motor," also known as the "Porcupine" and later as the "Semi-Hemi" and the "Rat," was first developed to beat Ford's FE 427, Pontiac's 421 and MoPar's Max Wedge/Ramcharger 426 RB wedge.  


Prevented from openly supporting professional competition, Zora and Vince kept Chevy's back door parts operation open.  Chevrolet also expanded its marine operations. It covertly funded Jim Hall's revolutionary Chaparral Can-Am racers.  It debugged the Rat's design and even cast a few Rats in aluminum. It evaded corporate edicts through enterprising dealers like Don Yenko, Baldwin-Motion and Fred Gibb with a gaping loophole called Central Office Production Orders (COPO). In other words, the in-house racers at Chevy went underground.


From 1962-1970, Ford paid an all-star professional cast millions to win for the Blue Oval. But Henry II became concerned by the safety-emissions regulatory storm brewing in Washington D.C. and his responsibility to Ford's shareholders.  After some turbulent hearings by a Congressional committee, Henry reacted by slashing the racing program.  When Henry fired Bunkie Knudsen (who had left GM after being bypassed for promotion), Ford lost its biggest racing fan.  MoPar also severely cut back its sponsorships and then killed the Hemi. An era was over.


When the racing door shut at Ford, it slammed--except for modest foreign operations and a bit of truck racing in Baja.  Without a clandestine infrastructure such as Zora and Vince had built to support the Corvette and no powerful champions arguing for selling parts to the grassroots, Ford's performance and racing reputation was in freefall.  Some of the in-house racers survived at Ford. Others, such as Jack Roush, ended up outside the corporate mainstream.


The professional racers Ford and MoPar had paid now needed to find other ways to fund their race teams. Some switched immediately to Chevy because of cheaper parts. Other waited until the supplies of Ford and MoPar racing parts dwindled. 


The flood of Chevy parts Zora and Vince had nurtured, some shrewd under-the-table deals, and favorable rules changes by major sanctioning bodies combined to give Chevrolet over a decade of free reign in oval track racing. 


In the minor-leagues, GM made the only "full frame" midsized cars (except for some huge "midsize" Fords from 1972-1979) and the small-track rulesmakers, pursuing cheaper "junkyard formulas" not far removed from the days of the flatheads, didn't accommodate Ford and MoPar racers as much as NASCAR had in the 1960s. In combination with the "half frame" Camaro/Nova (an idea first used by Holman and Moody) it was advantage: Chevrolet, on the short tracks.


At the strip, Chevy edged Ford in the sportsman classes, mainly on the strength of its grassroots parts operation, better parts interchangability, harsh factoring decisions, well-placed assistance deals, and the continued success of its Mustang-fighter--the Camaro. 


After the muscle car era ended in an early '70s haze of emission laws, inflation and insurance surcharges, grassroots street rodding reemerged. The SBC quickly became the dominant power source in pre-'48 rods, based on the vast supply of junkyard engines and ease of fitting one in place of an obsolete flathead.  Chevrolet helped this trend by agressively marketing the "targetmaster" crate engine--not a performance engine out of the box, but one which could benefit from 30+ years of racing parts development.


It also didn't help that from 1973-1982, Ford offered no real high performance street car and little in factory performance parts. By 1981, the few professionals left running Fords in US competition were reportedly scrounging junkyards in Australia for useable Cleveland heads.


The irony is while Chevrolet never won LeMans four times in a row or even one Formula One race or produced any outrageous engines like the Boss 429, Boss 302, SOHC 427, 427 High-Riser, 427 Tunnel-Port or the Boss 351, its little backdoor "Corvette parts" operation effectively trumped Ford's huge lead among grassroots car crafters and racers. 


Although Ford's done a lot since 1981 to catch up, it's still a Chevy world for most rodders and Car Crafters. One wonders had Ford nurtured its motorsports business in the grassroots of the sport consistently from the 1940s whether Chevy would now even be a blip on the screen.  


If its not TURBOCHARGED, you're not finished yet . . . .

 

 
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