We dont refer to our selves as JY people but as Economical engine builders , or Low budgter or Alternative to high dollar spending approach people. LOL sheesh man you got to be politicaly correct now days. dont be a hatter. lol GOT NOTHING BUT LOVE MAN  

October 2, 2003, Dr511scj suggested:

"The JY (Junkyard) turbo people might disagree!

" I'm thinking a couple of junkyard Powerstroke turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler into a double pumper on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."

Of course if Camaro Craft does it, they will probably cobble up a couple of T-3s on a "smokin'" 305 SBC or something."

HMMM?  Still a GREAT idea for CC . . . .

you call rebuilding the bottom end a minor detail? I dont know about the rest of you, but changing plugs and wires, or putting a different intake manifold is minor to me, but when you pretty much have to tear down an engine, that aint minor to me.

The record in NDRA Pro RWD (the turbo 6's and turbo rotorys) is a 6.69 ET. I believe the fastest Turbo Buicks are the Ken Duttweiler olds (GN engine) that has run a 6.89 and his actual GN that runs a 7.28.

http://www.bgnra.org/fast_cars.htm

GM made some bad ass turbo cars, then pissed on itself when they went faster than the vette. Because of that they killed their great turbo cars and haven't built ones like them since.

Sequential Fuel injection isn't actually a GM invention; Nippondenso holds the patent for sequential fuel injection (and has since the late 70's).

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4073270.html

Turbos are based off of technology developed for the diesel industry, turbo era F1 and rally racing; not GM passenger cars. The big boys of turbo design are Garret/Honeywell, KKK, IHI and Mitsubishi. Turbonetics turbos are based off of the Honeywell/Garret designs. Turbonetics current "director of business engineering and development" used to work at Honeywell as their "head of all automotive turbocharger design". GM used Garret turbos, but has never owned Honeywell/Garret. GM does hold some stock in IHI but it's not a controlling interest.

Chrysler never owned Mitsubishi, Diamond Start Motors was a collective effort. The engine that powered the Talon/Eclipse/Laser triplets was  the rally derived Mitsubishi 4G63. The turbocharger on that engine is also a Mitsubishi design.

Anyway, sport compacts exist because someone figured out that if they stuck a more powerful engine into a base model car people would buy them. "Sport compacts" have been around for a long time. What do you think the VW super beetle was? Or how about the Ford Lotus Corina or the Rally dominating Minis? Small car/powerful engine is a really old idea, it didn't just pop out of the 80's. What came out of the 80's was the common use of EFI and the Trickling down of F1 turbo tech.

Personally I'd love to see car craft build a junkyard turbo engine. From what I understand they can't use diesel turbos because gasoline engine exhaust is too hot for diesel turbos. However, there are still plenty of junkyard turbo options if they were to use a twin turbo setup on a small block. Most JY turbos are for engines ranging from 1.6-3.0 liters of displacement, so a JY twin turbo setup could support ~360ci. Big commercial truck intercoolers are fair game, the Isuzu NPR truck intercooler is passenger car sized. The Power stroke and the Dodge Cummins intercoolers are nice too. Megasquirt II and JY EFI components could compose a solid fuel management system. The only expensive part in the whole build would be a good set of pistons.

Joe

Wow, a guys gone for a week in vegas and the place goes to hell.

How many guys that read car craft are even interested in turbos?  Not all that many.  Most of you guys who are pushin this I've never seen on this board, or have only been here for a little while.  Puttin together a turbo setup isn't as easy as some of you think either, not to mention you've got all the plumbing and *** you've gotta do.  Not to mention you've gotta run a good bottom end to handle that kind of boost.  I'd rather run a blower or nitrous myself.  No lag, no pipes runnin everywhere, and it looks cool to boot.  I'm not saying turbos are a bad thing, but they're not what most car crafters wanna work with.  And these days, there's a difference between a "hot rodder" and a "car crafter"

I've been reading CC for a long time and regularly read posts on this board, though I rarely post. I didn't care much for Jeff Smith but now that DF is in charge again I'm re-subscribing.

Turbo setups aren't easy, that's why people would like to see what exactly is involved in building a JY setup before attempting it themselves. The big advantage to turbocharging a V8 is you can find useable turbos and intercoolers in the junkyard. I've never seen a useable nitrous setup or a blower in the junkyard before. Regarding the bottom end it only needs to be as strong as the power you put through it; no different than any other power adder.

Joe

AM13: "How many guys that read car craft are even interested in turbos? Not all that many."

DR511scj: Really? How do we "know" that?  It wouldn't be from reading negative feedback about any JY turbo stories appearing in CC (because there haven't been any).    Why not print something at least as "real world" as the now-monthly GM LS V8 story/press release? Hmm?

Mitch, have you ever seen how much attention a homebuilt turbo set-up gets at a rod run or a show?

 AM13: "Most of you guys who are pushin this I've never seen on this board, or have only been here for a little while."

DR511scj: Irrelevant!  Should we discount the opinions of those who are actually too busy Car Crafting and feeding their families to spend all day posting?  Is someone who spews out 500+ messages on the forum inherently more credible than someone who occasionally posts a thoughtful comment?

AM13: "Puttin together a turbo setup isn't as easy as some of you think either, not to mention you've got all the plumbing and *** you've gotta do. Not to mention you've gotta run a good bottom end to handle that kind of boost. I'd rather run a blower or nitrous myself."

DR511scj: Yeah, you don't need no stinkin' "good bottom end" with squeeze or a Jimmy . . . .  If it was "easy," then why would anyone ask CC to write about it? CC should be about ADVANCING the art of affordable performance, not just repeating the same old cam-carb-headers-N20-on-an-SBC yarns.  WE ALREADY KNOW HOW TO DO THAT!

AM13: "No lag, no pipes runnin everywhere, and it looks cool to boot."

DR511scj:  If so, then a proper JY turbo story will expose each of these weaknesses--and put them into proper perspective.  But what's cooler, IMHO, is a "real street," flat-hood, drive-it-anywhere sleeper that packs a 24/7, no-refills-necessary, full-race punch.  All things being equal, there isn't any way you're going to beat that with a huffer or giggle gas (After all, why do all the drag racing associations penalize turbos much more heavily than N20 or supercharging? It's not because of "lag" or "pipes runnin' everywhere." And why could MM&FF crank 900+ hp out of a stock block '03 Cobra crate motor only with turbos?)

AM13: if a I'm not saying turbos are a bad thing, but they're not what most car crafters wanna work with.

DR511scj: And how would a JY turbo story in CC force anyone to "work with" turbos?  

What Car Crafting needs is an infusion of diversity and greater technological awareness.  Junkyard small-blocks (or even mega-inch "crate motors") in forty-year-old "musclecars" are fun, but don't seem to resonate with enough younger folks to keep the Car Crafting hobby vital.  Besides, why should we concede the ultimate power adder--turbocharging-- to the import "tuners?"  If in cubic inches we trust, then its time to appropriately demonstrate this concept in a turbocharged format.

AM13: "And these days, there's a difference between a "hot rodder" and a "car crafter""

DR511scj: No, there's a difference between those who are stuck in 1955 and those who want to integrate modern developments into affordable street cars.

Finally, if CC ran a decent JY build-up, how would it possibly harm the hidebound traditionalists who can't look up from tuning their swap-meet double-pumpers?  How would it keep anyone from "spraying" their IROC-Z or plopping a gnarly 6-71 on their Malibu if they so desire?  

Information is power.  And a JY turbo build-up would be POWERFUL information!

Agree 100% with the last comment posted. I try to check out the board when I can, but I'm a Car guy, not a computer geek thats online all the time. Have you seen me before? I don't care. That doesn't make you a better car crafter or hot rodder than me, It meens your online while I'm working on my car.

Personally I'd love to see more tech articles on turbos. Lets not make them VooDoo, like EFI was to the stuborn among us. I'm just now learning fuel injection in great detail because of the stuborn people that want to see Holley carbs on the cover, and have the time to write in to the magazines to complain about it. Hey, if you want your car to be slow, be my guest, but I want all the info I can get in front of me so I can pick the best path for my next project. Bottom line is if turbos make big power, tell me how I can get a couple under my hood. They've been around for god knows how long, when are we going to learn to use them properly. Don't wait till all the bitchin from the stuborn 4bbl guys stops. Otherwise we'd all still be running flathead V-8's.

Information and Technology help us to make more power everyday, its called progress. If you don't want to go fast, get the hell out of the way.

I feel the same way..

a jy build would be great,, but tell us what parts you use a month or two before the story hits so we can go raid the jy before they up the price on those parts...lol

I'm a 4bl  carb guy only cause a totally tunable efi system still cost way too much....

I want one that I won't soon outgrow..unlike my desktop computer....lol

I may jump aboard the efi wagon on chevelle project if I can find a userfriendly setup that i'll never(o k almost never outgrow)

u said your now into efi...  where can I get some good(unbiased) info  on systems ..there pros and con's  and limitations...

I.E. I'd like a synquental set up over batch fire...  but haven't read much about all of it...  need to get more info.   before I jump un head first...

Wow, somebody likes to get personal quick.  Since when are you the voice of the car crafters nationwide?  Personally, I think the ls motor is out of reach for most of us.  I don't know any yards that have them, and I sure as hell can't afford a crate motor. If you think putting a turbo article in car craft is going to draw in the "younger crowd" I think you've got some misconceptions.  Most of my generation are a bunch of yuppies, and want cars that don't require much technical   know-how.  The gearheads I run around with, ( all of them under 25) are into carbs and old school performance.  EFI, LS and mod motors, and turbos are out of our price range and our patience for that matter.  If you've got the money to go buy an ls6 crate motor and run a turbo system on it, great.  I don't, I can barely afford to pay my tuition and  build up my 350.  If you like turbos that's fine, I could give a flying ####.  But if you've got nothing better to do than to *** at me cuz I don't, dont' hesitate to go #### yourself.

Sorry Mitch, but I think you misread my response to your post.  My comments were not "personal."   They focused on the issue of whether CC should only do "old school" tech or whether they should at least try an "affordable" turbo story. 

Neither of us can speak for all CC readers.

Certainly, I doubt many CC readers would approve of a $50,000 Gale Banks turbo SBC tale in CC. Or "Jeff Smith turbocharges the LS1." But  there's potential for serious turbo action at a budget price.  Really.

As to affording tuition and turbos . . . Mike Sitar did both.  See  http://www.toohighpsi.com/BudgetTT/tt351W.htm

"I built this car during the spring/summer of 1995 between my sophomore and junior years of college. Due to complete lack of money, I wanted to build the cheapest, fastest, car possible with the parts and little money I had available." 

See also, http://www.skulte.com/turbo.html (a college student's class project involving a turbo SBC)

Admittedly, these guys weren't average college students. But neither are the cars and people who make it into CC.  It takes extraordinary effort to build something innovative, unique and advanced on a budget. 

That's right!

(of course I still love to see a hot flathead every now and then . . . .)

http://cancermn.net/TS/TURBO.html

http://flatheaddrag.com/97gb/grtbendc.html

We've gone back and forth on this issue often enough Mitch but we can keep it civil so I'll throw my opinion in. There are working turbochargers and intercoolers to be had in the junkyard for cheap (I've seen working turbos for $50). Megasquirt EFI is DIY EFI; if you can read a wiring diagram and use a soldering iorn you can build an engine management system for a under $500. You'd still need injectors and sensors, but the JY can provide those too. With some creativity you could piece together a complete EFI system including manifold for under $1000. Turbocharged EFI doesn't have to be a "rich guys only" kind of thing. I think a creative guy can piece a simple system together on a real world budget.

I know you're not big into EFI so I looked into some blow through carb setups. If you feel like checking them out here's some links:

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/0309pon_turbo/

http://www.turbocalculator.com/custom.html

There are cheap forced induction devices in the junkyard, why not find a way to take advantage of them?

Joe

"From what I understand they can't use diesel turbos because gasoline engine exhaust is too hot for diesel turbos."

Dr511scj: Don't tell that to  http://msvorinich.itgo.com/oldindex.htm: an off-the-hook insane JY turbo builder who's running at least 12.79 @109 with a single Holset HX35 from a JY Cummins diesel (think: Dodge Ram)!  Sure, its only on a tiny JY 2.3 Ford, but just imagine the results of a pair on a proper V8 . . . .

Jump to the Holset: http://msvorinich.itgo.com/Jan0703.html

Jump to the track action: http://msvorinich.itgo.com/12-5-03.html

I stand corrected, you can use diesel turbos. I was told that there could be reliability problems with diesel turbos because they were designed with a colder operating temperature in mind. I guess my source was wrong.

Joe