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Horse vs. Compression  
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
01:34 PM

Go back and read what I said before you get all bent out of shape . You need to understand what I said. 


Ditto-All I am stating is there is more than one way to skin a cat. Every here seems to think there is only one way to build a motor, but if you lack funds, there still is a way to make power and have it last more than one run.

 

 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
01:55 PM

You inferred I was an idiot by throwing in the muffler bearings comment.


idiot

Main Entry: id·i·ot
Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own -- more at
SUICIDE

1
usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 :
a foolish or stupid person
- idiot adjective


No, never inferred to you as an idiot, just referred to you as common sence chalenged, but if it makes you feel better, I can refer to you as an Idiot-


"When ignorance prevails, and they are common sense challenged, I just go with the flow and start talking about muffler bearings and piston return springs and leave it at that."

You obviously didn't get the reference on the quote. Maybe you didn't get it, we have a difference of opinion, thats all-


common sense

Main Entry: common sense
Function: noun
1 : the unreflective opinions of ordinary people
2 : sound and prudent but often unsophisticated judgment
synonym see
SENSE
com·mon·sense
adjective

ignorance

Main Entry: ig·no·rance
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&n(t)s
Function: noun
: the state or fact of being ignorant

ignorant

ignorant

One entry found for ignorant.
Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective

1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>
2 : UNAWARE, UNINFORMED

- ig·no·rant·ly adverb
- ig·no·rant·ness noun


Try watching Tombstone. Good movie. Sure, I'll be your huckleberry.lol


I won't be returning to this particular thread, as it is pointless. You obviously think your cast bottom ends are good enough and I do not. So if it anit your way it is no way.This kid (Iroczguy) is never going to build this engine anyway. He's in high school and doesn't have near the cash to build that kind of a motor, or rest of the drivetrain to withstand it. If he does, it'll run like crap because all he wants to do is throw expensive parts on it. You're motors may make the 800+HP that you are claiming, but I guarantee you didn't just pick the most expensive parts from the book and throw them on it. I build them with cheap parts and good parts, they both blow up the same, usually a tunning mistake (usually pushing the motor too hard to win), but with no mistakes, they run for a long time.


I've tried to be polite, but this kid's got some growing up to do to realize there is more to engine building than looking at a parts book. I'm tired of getting into/reading arguments over stupid crap like this. What makes this stupid, just cuase I don't agree with you. Sorry you wear your feelings on your shoulder were someone can knock them off. Lata


Later

 

 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
02:09 PM

"...bring cash-cuase you will be seeing the tail lights of my 13:1, 400HP, 4.11 geared, big cam, cast crank, 383lol..."


I just noticed your statement above.  Good golly...  a 13cr 383 humpin' only 400hp?  Something is keeping your combo down.  There are 13cr 283s making 400hp.  Peace


I was using CSIROC's quote, being funny, but you didn't get the joke. lol 


CSIROC wrote- "Contradict yourself more. Please. Who builds a 400HP cast crank 383, with 13:1 pistons???" And wrote- "You have fun with your 13:1, 400HP, 4.11 geared, big cam, cast crank, 383. I'll be driving by on the highway with my 10:1 compression, 400HP"


And I informed him that is not what I posted, but I posted-


What I said was: 


"Cast crank 383 live under 300 shots of nitrous, I've done it, 13:1 on the street with pump gas happens when you run cams with more than 260 degrees @ .050 of cam timing and 32 degress of igintion timing, then turn the timing up to 38 to make the car run faster on race gas, I've done it."


Meaning I back off the timming to run a 13:1 motor on pump gas not on Nitrous, plus it was different motors and yes the nitrous one with a 300 shot, forged pistons but a cast crank. I also put a 300 shot on a stock Mustang GT with cast crank and cast pistons. 

 

 
nogo1049
New User | Posts: 36 | Joined: 09/05
Posted: 12/27/05
02:17 PM

I also put a 300 shot on a stock Mustang GT with cast crank and cast pistons. 


 


Duck and cover!!

 

 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
02:34 PM

"...I have made over 850hp on a chevy cast cank (600 motor + 250 shot) before import cranks, its all in the machining of the crank if it will live, I have a stroker 365 chevy with a cast crank that spins 8500."


Sure.  And Santa is real.


Wow, JCharlieM, of all people not to believe me, I thought you were old school. Anyway here are some people making the same kind of HP  or more HP with cast cranks-


Link-Butler Performance at Jeg's Engine Masters Challenge


Link-[ Rex Racing ] - Pure Pontiac Power - Race engines and equipment - Philadelphi


  


PONTIAC Peak HP: 659@ 6,200 rpm
Peak TQ: 624.5@ 4,600 rpm
Avg. HP: 523
Avg TQ: 578.6
SCORE: 1101.6
Cubic Inches:467
Cam: Solid Flat Tappet
Fuel: Gasoline - 92 Octane


COMMENTS FROM THE BUILDER


We have used this long rod combo for many years and made it readily available (with our initial partnership with Eagle) to the general customer at a very reasonable price with the production of the new cranks. We use these long rods for broad power and durability, especially when using cast cranks and factory blocks.


On A Budget







These are the technical specs for a low compression everyday driver 68 Firebird weighing 3550lbs that we got to run 11.60's thru 2 1/2" exhaust on a pretty tight budget. This car has run a best of 12.60 without nitrous and a best of 11.62 with 150hp system hit off the line with 10.5"x 29" slicks. The motor is shifted at 5500 both with and without nitrous. This car is regularly driven back and forth to work, and idles at 800 rpm in drive!



    1968 Pontiac Firebird:

  • 71 455 bored 0.030

  • Speed Pro plasma moly rings

  • TRW flat top forged pistons

  • Melling Tool Ram Air IV camshaft with stock type lifters

  • Stock Rods/crankshaft/ piston pins

  • No name 1 5/8 4 tube headers

  • 71 cast 96 heads stock/ no porting/ no matching

  • Edelbrock Performer intake

  • 750 cfm Q jet

  • 150HP NOS nitrous system

  • HEI distibutor

  • Turbo 400 trans by AV Trans 215 342 3778

  • 12 bolt rear with 3.55 gears

With A Little Money to Spend







If you're trying to win races you might want to follow the example of Neil Danks. He is using our setup in his 1970 Lemans. Neil won the 2002 Pontiac Fall Nationals at Atco in Bracket 2, cutting a perfect .500 and a few 5-oh lights along the way. This is a streetable combination. Below are the technical specs for his car.



    1970 Pontiac Lemans:

  • 1973 455 block filled to water holes with Moroso block filler

  • 1970 455 N crank turned 0.010/0.010

  • Crower Sportsman connecting rods

  • Heads are standard port Edelbrock

  • Camshaft is a Lunati Roller

  • Victor intake

  • 1050 carb

  • T400 trans

  • 3.73 gears

  • Cars runs 10.70's on motor thru full exhaust

  • Car runs 9.90's with 150 HP nitrous system

  • Car weighs 3655 with driver


We can build one of these for you or you can:

Go All Out







This beautiful Super Gas 66 GTO, owned by Gary Felice, turns heads wherever it goes. It is a 2x3 box frame A arm car with a ladder bar/coilover rear setup and Pontiac powerplant built by Rex Racing Engines!



    1966 Pontiac GTO:

  • 1968 428 block filled to water holes with Moroso block filler

  • 1971 455 N crank 4.25" stroke

  • GRP Aluminum connecting rods 6.8"

  • Ross pistons

  • Edelbrock wide port 360cfm 72 cc heads with T&D rocker shafts

  • Camshaft is a Comp Roller .660 274/282

  • Ported Victor intake

  • 9375 1050 Holley carb

  • T400 trans

  • 4.10 gears

  • Car run 9.50's @ 2900lbs



 





This is our very own combination from the 2000-2001 season. The car is now in New England powered by a 560 cu in Big Block Chevy and the 494 Pontiac engine is now powering a GTO in the midwest.



    1990 Pontiac Trans Am:

  • 1971 455 block filled to just above water holes with Moroso block filler and bored .100 over

  • 1971 455 N crank custom ground to 4.350 stroke

  • GRP Aluminum connecting rods 6.8"

  • Ross pistons 4.25 bore

  • Wenzler series 2 aluminum heads with T&D shaft rockers

  • Camshaft is a Comp Roller .722 274/282

  • Ported Victor intake

  • 1050 Holley carb

  • Powerglide trans by AV Trans 215 342 3778

  • 4.10 gears

  • Car ran 8.60's @ 2600lbs








1968 455 Firebird owned by Anthony Vassalo



    1968 Pontiac Firebird:

  • 1970 0.030 over 455 block filled to just above water holes with Moroso block filler

  • 1971 455 N crank 4.21" stroke

  • BME Aluminum connecting rods 6.625"

  • SPR pistons

  • Edelbrock 360cfm 62 cc heads

  • Camshaft is a Lunati Roller .660 lift

  • Ported Victor intake

  • 1050 Holley carb

  • Powerglide trans

  • 4.10 gears



  • Car runs 9.40's on motor

 

 
JCharlieM
Enthusiast | Posts: 255 | Joined: 12/03
Posted: 12/27/05
02:45 PM

"...Wow, JCharlieM, of all people not to believe me, I thought you were old school. Anyway here are some people making the same kind of HP  or more HP with cast cranks-..."


I am old school.  That's one reason why I question your statement of a small Chevy cast iron crank handling +800hp while on juice.

 

 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
03:37 PM

Having built numerous sbc motors(as I'm sure you have too, Gibs), he's full of B.S..
You won't run 13:1 comp. on pump gas,HRM PGD'S, Engine Masters, some went with 13:1 while others went with 12:1 on pump gas- 

"The compression used by most contestants was 12.5:1. This seems to be the power sweet spot. 13:1 is a little high and 12:1 is a little low. 12.5 is where I suspect we will see most engines in the future."


"4. COMPRESSION - More compression makes more power, assuming you can control detonation. Compression is often limited by rules. In the Engine Masters, contestants are limited by 92 octane pump gas. The most popular compression in the winner's circle is 12.5:1. This ratio is too high for a street car, but it has a place in race engines on the edge. Many builders are scared of compression, it's worthwhile to test and find the engine limits using a research mule."


S/S cars make they're power on ported/welded/ported/machined factory castings.
Making reliable 600hp, will require forged pistons, an aftermarket crank, and aftermarket heads. So all those other guys making 600+ HP with Stock Heads and Cast Cranks are full of B.S. also?Plus someone who is very good assembling the motor. You will have none of this, obviously.
While this motor may run when you are finished, it won't live long, and likely won't make anywhere near the power your thinking it will. It will tear itself apart, because you decided not to fortify the bottom end, the basic building block.


Wow these people must be full of B.S. also-


There are hundreds of cast 454 cranks that are being used with passenger car connecting rods in junkyard, two-bolt-main 427 and 454 blocks that power Super Comp and Super Gas dragsters reliably without being the weak link. But once you want more than 600 horsepower, an aftermarket crank is called for. The cost of aftermarket cranks ranges from a low end of around $400 for something lousy from China,Now I disagree, china stuff is affordable, not lousy, and they are machined by US shops through $600 to around $1,100 for something better, up to a high end of over $2,000 for something strong enough for nitro and nice enough to display in your living room. A top-quality aftermarket crank is the way to go in a serious race engine.


Don't think this high schooler is building a serious race engine. A 400+ hp motor with cast internals would suit him just fine and is the norm in the industry-


Chevy 383 425 Horsepower Short Block - StrokerMotor.com$999.00    " OUR POOR BOY SPECIAL "


1piece seal small block chevy 383 mighty mouse$749.00


383 CHEVY 450 HORSEPOWER CHEVY STREET ENGINE


383 Small Block Chevy 525hp / 500ft-lbs Stroker Short Block


Engine Factory Donates Chevy 450 hp 383 V8 to be Auctioned at Barrett-Jackson at NO R


CHEVY Mania!

 


 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
04:02 PM


I am old school.  That's one reason why I question your statement of a small Chevy cast iron crank handling +800hp while on juice.


In the late 80's early 90's mag's wrote alot about Joe Sherman built  383 SBC motors  with cast cranks, many used his comb's and added as much as 300 shot of Nitrous to these combo's. Good forged Cranks costed $2500, so machining a 400 crank for @ $150 to 350 mains was really the only choice. His motors made excess of 700 HP, we were no Joe Shermans, our motors averaged 600 HP, but add 150 to 300 shot of nitrous and we were right there in power levels, his cars went low 10's, high nines, ours went high 10's on the motor and low 10's and in the 9's on nitrous with his combo. We paid $250 plus freight for one of his cams, and it was worth it, we ran those same spec's for many motors for many years, and if your wondering what those spec's are, it cost you $250. 

 

 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
04:19 PM

 I also put a 300 shot on a stock Mustang GT with cast crank and cast pistons. 


Duck and cover!!


Yeah, that one ran great, till the fuel pump took a dump and leaned out the motor,resulting in a hole in the piston, but it still ran all the way up to the day we took it apart. lol

 

 
TheBat63
Enthusiast | Posts: 302 | Joined: 04/05
Posted: 12/27/05
08:56 PM

I did not say there wasn't, all I said was you should get a forged crank not that you have too. You implied that I was suggesting items to fatten my wallet which I was not . I was merely suggesting that a Forged crank for someone money challenged might in the long run be more economical if he SHOULD happen to blow the thing up. Suggesting which parts a customer should buy has as much to do with the technical acumen of the buyer as it does anything else and I think in the case of a highschooler a pennys worth of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  Also what year was that Mustang because if I am not mistaken 5.0 GT engines with the exception of the 92-3 were forged piston engines, not cast as you stated. 92 and 93 were cast hypereutectic so just curious as to what year you built there.    


 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
09:33 PM

I did not say there wasn't, all I said was you should get a forged crank not that you have too. You implied that I was suggesting items to fatten my wallet which I was not . I was merely suggesting that a Forged crank for someone money challenged might in the long run be more economical if he SHOULD happen to blow the thing up. Suggesting which parts a customer should buy has as much to do with the technical acumen of the buyer as it does anything else and I think in the case of a highschooler a pennys worth of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I disagree, a cast crank will handle anything this kid will throw at it due to the fact he is money challenged, not just my opinion either -  CHEVY Mania!


"How much power will the stock 400 crank handle?
I have used a prepped 400 crank to 700+HP I have used basically stock cranks to over 550 HP so a stock nodular iron crank is fine for most buildups. The crank is strong because of the beefier construction of the crank."


Also what year was that Mustang because if I am not mistaken 5.0 GT engines with the exception of the 92-3 were forged piston engines, not cast as you stated. 92 and 93 were cast hypereutectic so just curious as to what year you built there 86' Carburated if I remember correctly

 


 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/27/05
09:56 PM

I also put a 300 shot on a stock Mustang GT with cast crank and cast pistons.


 


I'm not the only one to do this, many others have, and mags have writen about it-


http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0406_nuke/


Nuke It!

Stuffing a Full Load of Nitrous Into a Junkyard 350 Chevy



Photography: Jeff Smith





This is a story of wanton destruction. At least it started out that way. A year or so ago, when I was the editor of Chevy High Performance, we decided to see how much nitrous a stock, junkyard small-block Chevy could take before it grenaded. So we rounded up a high-mileage 350 out of a '75 Chevy from our friends at Memory Lane, a recycling yard that specializes in '73-and-earlier vehicles.


We quickly hit the engine with a one-two punch of 100hp and then 200hp nitrous hits that the engine handled without a whimper. With the 200hp kit, our mighty Mouse was steamin' at 521 hp with 587 lb-ft of torque! Next, we hit it with 300hp and saw the power shoot up to 599 hp and 655 lb-ft of torque. When we re-baselined the normally aspirated combo, our little hero small-block stepped up with 325 hp, an increase of 15 hp over the previous baseline. We attributed this to better ring seal after the nitrous knocked the carbon off the rings! Now we were ready for the big squeeze!

 

 
GibTG
Guru | Posts: 917 | Joined: 08/03
Posted: 12/28/05
01:11 AM

I can't even begin to follow all the B.S.! See ya











 

                                                                                      ~Gibs

 

 
Invadr
User | Posts: 75 | Joined: 01/05
Posted: 12/28/05
01:21 AM






I can't even begin to follow all the B.S.! See ya










 

                                                                                      ~Gibs

Wow, your right and every one is full of B.S.= SMUCK  

 
TheBat63
Enthusiast | Posts: 302 | Joined: 04/05
Posted: 12/29/05
12:13 AM

Well If you would read My posts I have a scrap pile of junk cast Scat cranks that say NO they will not handle whatever you throw at them . Now you can either believe that or what you choose to think because of your experience . Hey your decision . In your case it held up greaT FOR YOU !I on the other hand have a pile of warranty cranks that have been split in two because someone over did it . With too much nitrous 200 + shots , supercharging or in some cases heavy towing loads. But you seem to to be the genius here you have him buy that cast crank. Oh and your Mustang had Forged pistons , it was 86  right ? They were forged. Good luck to ya . I know I do not want to follow your burnout because the clean up one of these days is going to be time consuming.  


 
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