GM, pushrods, and everything else

Is it just me, or is GM behind the times?

Instead of innovating and leading the industry like they did when they introduced the small block, GM is still wallowing in their former glory.

Look at Ford, and to a lesser extent, DaimlerChrysler.

Ford has argualby the most advanced American V-8's in existance, with the 4.6 and 5.4 SOHC and DOHC engines.  If you haven't ridden in a new mustand or F150, especially the new 3 valve triton 5.4, then your missing something.  Like tons of horsepower and torque.  They are sweet, smooth, and can be dropped into almost any vehilce on ford's production line. 

And Ford's trailblazing with the new mustang, the GT, the cobra concept, and their 10 cycinder DOHC motor.

GM's further perfecting what is basically the same type of motor that they introduced 30 years ago.  I know that the LS6 is an awesome, 400 horsemotor, especially in the z06 corvette, but for that price I can almost buy 2 mustangs. 

And the ford motors are cheaper since they don't need things like titanium retainers, hollow valves, and superlight valvetrains to be able to rev.

And then GM brings out another european-styled dud like the GTO, which looks just like a Grand Prix, so where's the innovation?

Ford just knocked another one out of the park with the 5.0 "cammer". But in defense of GM they are scoring in other market areas and that is where they want to be. The "bean counters" and "powers that be" have decided it is a better idea to concentrate on Caddy SUV's and upscale performance. And the ESCALADE is whipping Fords butt in sales.

But we are still left with no Camaro or Firebird. And GM thought that was a good idea. Just like it is a good idea to keep offering FWD 6 cylinder Monte Carlos and Impalas that look like 4 door Monte Carlos. As long as they keep cars driving in circles on Nextel Cup TV broadcasts they think the performance fans will be happy.

Essentially GM is peeing on the heads of their customers and telling them it is rain. When they are done they will be left standing around with their privates in hand wondering what happened. 

And yes the new GTO is far less in many ways than it should be but at least it is a V8 and RWD.

The "innovation" from GM is pretty much rollin on Dubs with sonic boom bass notes emanating from it. And these are the same people who brought us the 1967 Camaro RS SS 375 horse 396? No not really these are the people who brought you the Cadillac Cimmaron.

Ford is taking a big gamble with the Mustang, GT, Cobra, 500, and other retro styled vehicles. Not to mention the retro fit "cammer" engine program.  As fans of Hot Rodding they deserve our support.

Ford is taking a big gamble with the Mustang, GT, Cobra, 500, and other retro styled vehicles. Not to mention the retro fit "cammer" engine program.  As fans of Hot Rodding they deserve our support.

What is this "retrofit engine program" you speak of? 

The retrofit engine program is almost identical to what GM is doing with its ramjet 350 and 502. 

Ford will be offering (according to their press releases) a 5.0L, 420hp, DOHC crate motor with a modular electronic fuel injection system (I think) that can basically be put into any vehicle for around $14k.

Carburated versions and supercharged versions will also supposedly be avaliable.

And I don't think that it is much of a gamble.  Sure, you are going to have knuckle draggers out there who think overhead cams and fuel injection are the devil incarnate, just as you are going to have back-wards hat, twinturbo 2.0L ricer boys out there.

But, as for me, I think that nothing looks as sweet as a classic mustang convertible with an awesome blown, DOHC fuel injected V-8 in it.  Drop in a six speed and, dare i say it, an independent rear, and have some fun.

And thats not to say that GM's 350 and 502 fuel-injected crates aren't aweseome:  they are.  Just as GM's new 572 big block is awesome.

But you know what I think would be better?  A streetable, DOHC 572 big block that revs forever, comes with an easy to use fuel injection system, and makes 800hp. 

To add a question:  What would you rather have:  A carb'd 572 big block or a 5.0L DOHC fuel injected small black?  For your daily driver?  For your streep/strip weekend warrior?  For your tubbed, back-halved, one-fiberglass bucket, primered, ride?

Here's what I would like to see:  a new concept chevelle.

What would you like it to be?

Stroked LS6, (6.0L?), 6 speed manual or a 5 speed automatic, independent rear (steal from the vette!) 

An LS6 plus a chevelle?  It wasn't wrong 1970 and I don't think it would be wrong today.

HEY GM!  IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME!

I wouldn't say GM is behind the times.  They believe in the old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  The pushrod V8 in GM vehicles is pretty powerful, and it hold's it's own against any of the other V8 entries on the market, especially the truck market.  My brother owns a Hemi Dodge, and it is definitely stout, but it isn't such a huge difference when compared to the 5.3 I had in my GMC, or the 6.0 in my brother's 2500 HD.  It was more cost effective for them to stick with a pushrod V8, or at least that is what they felt would be most profitable, rather than retooling everything and going in the overhead cam direction, like Ford did.  I'm sorry, but the new F-150 is absolutely the ugliest truck on the market right now.  Yeah, they sell tons of them, but that is what brand loyalty does for the big three.  GM isn't the worlds largest seller of vehicles for no reason, and this is what they care about most: THE BOTTOM LINE.  It sucks for the real (GM) car enthusiast, because you are right about the GTO.  They took an existing vehicle, the Holden Monaro, a GM vehicle in Australia, made it a left hand driver, and put some Pontaic and GTO badges on it.  Sure, it has the performance to back up the name, but it looks likle a stretched-out Chevy Cavalier.  It is terrible for a GM fan, like myself, to see an icon like the GTO come back looking like that.  But is was a cost issue, as it always is with GM, and the consumer is who pays for it.  I say let the Corvette design team have a crack at a totally new body style for the Chevelle SS, not this GTO platform.  It is too late, though, because if you look at the current Chevy High Performance Magazine cover, there is a prototype Chevelle SS, and it is a rebadged GTO.  Terrible.  The new Mustang is absolutely a home-run for Ford.  It has styling cues from the 68 Fastback, mixed with todays technology.  It is what everyone, GM, Ford, and Chrysler people have been asking for since the early 80's.  I don't understand the people that run these car companies when it comes to these types of cars.  Ford used the FOX Chassis for the Mustang since 1979 (I think).  GM used the same F-Body chassis from 1982 to 2002.  They changed the body on both these cars twice, with Ford going to drastic changes for the last Mustang, before the new one comes out.  It was all abou the bottom line.  The thing is, if you have a product that you know will sell, why not go for it, instead of retreading these old chassis with new sheetmetal.  Well, Ford did it, and coming from a bona-fide Chevy guy, that is a big complement.  I love the new Mustang, maybe I'll take one for a test drive.  

You make a good point about thier being little difference between the trucks.  I personally love the new f-150, especially after renting one for a weekend to help move some stuff. 

Its almost like nobody cares about making cars anymore. 

Mopar or Damilerchrysler or Doge or whatever you want to call it doesn't really make any awe-inspiring cars - yet.

GM's only got the corvette.

Ford's got the mustang.  ( i won't count the GT cause it really is in a class of its own, just like the viper).

Its like the only nice vehicles out there are trucks.  And all the cars out there are simply varieties of the same vehicle.  Its yet another v-6, front drive car that will serve its duty quitely for the next 75k miles/5 years until it gets traded in.

To go on a tangent, especially about trucks, how does the new nissan Titan fit into the existing f-150/ram/silverado triumverate?

Are the japanese going to kill the truck market like they did to the beloved musclecar?

I may tick a lot of people off with this comment but Chevrolet is no longer GM's "performance" division. In the corporate offices Chevy is the "everyman" division. middle class people, blue collar stuff. They are letting Pontiac carry the Performance banner to the masses, except for the Corvette which is essentially it's own marque. All the major manufacturers are reeling right now trying to get a piece of a very changable marketplace. They have to see the big picture a decade ahead to stay competitive. As much as I miss the Camaro and Firebird at least they did not have to succumb to GM's bastardazation like the Impala and Malibu.

What makes Ford's performance efforts such a gamble is they are sucking hind teet right now in a lot of markets and cost vs. return is a huge priority. All it would take is a Middle East crisis or Insurance crisis and once again 13 second factory performance would be gone ala 1971. I remember the "Gas Crisis" and scramble getting product to market that gave us the Vega and Mustang 2. GM, Chrysler, and Ford all remember it too and that is why we get V freakin 6 Impalas and Monte Carlos instead of a Z28 or SS anything to rival the Mustang.

I myself believe that a Camaro styled like the concept in PHR would kick the Mustang in the teeth, and I am a Ford guy. I base this on the fact that Camaro guys have nothing now and retro is in. But GM would rather keep 50 cent and Justin Timberlake in Escalades. And the rest of us in junk. The only reason we have the SSR is because it was so far into planning and pre production they wanted a realization of the investment, it got here a few years late of impacting anything.

The GTO represents Gm's "commitment" to their musclecar enthusiasts, if the can rehash or reskin it, import it or stripe it, the may fling it at the wall hoping it will stick. But "bottom line" it just is not worth a real effort and that is why we have pushrods still. I hope in the long run Ford proves to be the winner with their efforts, not because of bias, because they continued offering us something and gambled on the American Musclecar guys. And I hope GM gets burned on Hybrids, Fuel Cells, Cadillac trucks, and V6 Fwd "performace vehicles just like they did with aluminum blocks and pistons on the early Vegas.

PUSHRODS RULE ...............

In the real world of car payments and government regulation , I think the GTO is a pretty damn nice car . Usable interior ( crappy trunk ) seating for four adults and ..... get this ..... A better engine than anything the Ford Motor Company ever produced . I am sure when I hit the drags this spring , I will witness some 12 second stock GTOs . So what if the car is a 2 door Catera . 350 ( maybe more ) horsepower LS1 . No blower . No belts to break . You think this is GM's last word on street performance ? Wait until the next Z06 - 600 hp out of the showroom , and with the crate engine available at the parts department . Lincoln LS8 or Catera CTS-V ?With the way Ford has been bleeding money for the last 3 years , I think the 67 looking rustang will be around for a long time . You ever hear of a Northstar. 320 horsepower in a 4.6 with old man cam timing . GM is still secen years ahead of all the other car companies . You see all of those Satellite freaking radio antennas on your neighbor's German junk -XM - GM . Get over it . Fords still suck .

Yeah, I've got your Northstar . . . in my FWD cadillac for 40 grand.

Oh, yeah, its in the XLR, but I'm sorry if I ain't got 70 grand to blow.  (I'd rather have a corvette, btw). 

And don't complain about belts . . . every modern motor has a serpentine belt.  So they break.  Then you fix them.  It isn't that hard.

And your technology point is XM radio?  Gimme a break.  I can go get XM installed for a less than 200 bucks.  And I like my CD's much better.

350 hp is what it specs at, which puts it at low 13's, maybe high 12's on a good day.  Standard ET caluclator (Weight=3725, hp=350)=12.81

Compared to the mustang cobra:  3665 lbs, 390hp, =12.29

Of course, at slicks, exhaust, chips, pulleys, air breathers, and both can jump to 500 hp pretty easily.

And at a similar price, too.

But I'd rather have the mustang.  At least it looks like an american muscle car and not some family european sedan.

???????????????

Do you realize you validated my point? GM is primarily concerned with Caddys and Vettes. They threw the RWD V8 guys a bone with the GTO, not much effort in R&D but it is a "performance" car. Pontiac is going global with their image and upscale, Corvette is already there. Chevrolet is going no where, in fact rumour has it with Toyota now in the fray GM may pull totally out of NASCAR. Ford is staying in touch with American buyers, they are not perfect but they are better.

Because you think FORD has it together does not mean it does . The Blue Oval boys are putting up some massive financial losses every quarter lately . Is the Blown Rustang all that LOW BUCK ? A Forty Thousand dollar fairmont .Buy a 2001 Z06 off the used car lot and out run everybody .

I work at a Pontiac dealer and our 2 Black GTOs were sold and off the lot within MINUTES of delivery . I am sure all of this years GTOs will be taken , clearing the way for a 400 hp JUDGE soon .

Why would GM pull out of the hottest segment of Motorsports ? We won most of the races last year and some wussbag stroke like Matt Kenseth wins the championship is his Roush Cheater special 17 . Ford gets a new cheater cylinder head . toyota gets a clean sheet of paper cheater pushrod V8 . Dodge gets the illegal taurus body and the Chevy cylinder heads .GM gets to slog along with a 1955 short block with 1996 cylinder heads . NASCAR approved the LS1 for trucks until CryBaby Jack Roush once again got his way with the rule makers . Bring Toyota on , GM will beat the cheats this year as well .

A new cobra retail is about 32k.  If I posted wrong, then I aplogize.

So, the new cobra is 20 grand less than the z06.

I love the z06.  I'll admit it.  It is an excellent machine.  But I bet with the 20k i save buying a cobra I can beat the z06.

And if you find a used z06, then please let me know.  I'll be there in 2 shakes with my checkbook.

And today, 32 grand is low buck.  It is within the normal consumer's range, if he or she is willing to make some sacrifices.  But 50 grand?  Thats half the cost of my house.  Or the debt of my student loans.

And I did validate the point about the GTO.  It is a decent car, except I hate the way the rear looks (like my mom's taurus).

How hard would it have been for a hood scope?  Either like the late 60's models with a pair of scoops or a single middle scoop like the early 60's would make me love the GTO. 

But I digress.  The z06 is probalby the most technologically advanced pushrod motor on the planet.  But it is still basically the same motor that rolled off the assembly line 30 years ago.  But what makes the z06 great is not only the motor, but the 6 speed tranny, and the fully independent suspesion (along with how its tuned).

And I just learned about the zr1 vette, with the DOHC 5.7 motor.  And it had 400hp in a time when the advanced computer tuning, advanced CNC machining and design, and all the other new research and development tricks were in their infancy.  I wonder how much hp that motor, if designed today, would make.

And in the end, its all about what someone wants.  I can put on my black slacks, $500 sunglasses, and jump in a corvette, or I can put on my jeans and $5 walmart sunglasses and jump in a mustang.

And a 400hp judge may or may not exist.  GM, like Ford, has to be careful.  They don't want a car that will compete with the corvette.

Just like Ford has the mustang GT, the cobra, and then the GT, which makes the Shelby concept less likely to hit production.

GM rumour has it wants to pursue "Global" motorsports vs. "Domestic" limited appeal motorsports, F1 and such vs. NASCAR & NHRA. I think it is BS just like I think the Camaro being dropped was BS but it seems to be coming to pass. You will always see bowties running in circles but it will be with no factory support. If that seems inconcievable check your history.

As far as NASCAR goes I think Roush, Kenseth, and Martin are no where near DEI and Gibbs as far as being "Real" racers, and I am a Ford guy. Kenseth is a champ as much as I am, the whole thing is screwy now days.

Bottom line GM shows less commitment to everyday american performance cars than Ford. The GTO is an IMPORT for all you Import Haters, the put GTO badges on an IMPORT! I cannot say it plainer than this, climb in your 6 banger Monte Carlo or Impala, pull up next to a Mustang. Apples and Apples guys, the Vette has never been designed to be Mustangs competition nor has the GTO. It is supposed to be the CAMARO and they let it die, and handed you a fwd crapbox or a mega buck 2 seater and an IMPORT. They are peeing on your legs and swearing it is rain.