1980 street racers meet 2005 tech

What's quick rod got to do with racing sport compacts? Wow I must stutter when I write. Here I will write slower- "b o t h  c a r s  r u n  t h e  s a m e  E T  b u t  o n e  i s  a l o t   f a s t e r  b u t  n o t  q u i c k e r  t h a n  t h e  o t h e r "

Don't give me garbage for just making a comment unintended to be offensive other than to producers of crap movies. You can count on one hand the number of weekly races I've missed at the local dragstrip in the past ten years, and unforunately I only made it to 6 different IHRA tracks this season. As a third-generation racer from both sides of my family, the racetrack raised me, so I'm not a blockhead for drag racing and cars, and I'm sure the same applies to plenty of others you lash out at. Not the one lashing out, but you fail to mention what CC projects you are working on.

Muscle never dies, fades, or whatever else anyone wants to argue. Our local strip has nearly tripled car counts to between 250-300 cars on most weeks, with one or two sport compacts in street. You can find 40 '69 Camaro's for every neon or honda, and without even attending any car shows. Wow, 250-300 cars thats great, what track is it? So 40 '69 Camaro's for every Neon or Honda, but how many are owned by young guns and how many drove to the track and drove home? Oh, and by the way 69 Camaro's are not Muscle Cars.

"how many are owned by young guns"

That's a *** statement.  There are plenty of younger guys running around with detroit tin, myself included.  They may not be '70 cudas or '69 camaros, but I'd consider a big block in a G body plenty muscular. "tooners" are for the guys who can't take a motor apart, and argue the horsepower per liter stuff when you beat them.  Most of them aren' capable of anything besides bolt ons.  When I went to the nationals for my division, there wasn't one tuner car in the high school section.  More g-bodies, 2nd and 3rd gen fbodies, and some other misc 70's cars.  You just notice younger guys with tuners because they're usually shooting their mouth off.

What kind of car would concider a mucle car? one thats built with lots orf hores or torq? or technoligy?what wins races? i own a 71 dodge polara custom.  Its a well built peice of steel and its over 33 yrs old.  Its older then me for gods sake!  do i concider it a mucle car ?  yes i do.  I worked at dodge for a year when i got out of the army.  I worked on the srt4 a few times while i was there.  i feel like the srt4 should be called a mucle car of sorts. its built on technoligy and on american steel,its a cheap car with a lot of bang for the buck!   

really, what is he concidering muscle. and if consider that neon a muscle car of sorts, what do you think of the cobolt ss?  

It's hard to define.  I'd call my friend's brother's '73 chevelle SS a muscle car even though it was pretty gutless originally.  ( Yes they made a few 73's just not a lot)  It's gotta be rwd and a v8, and have a certain styling to it.  3rd and 4th gen fbodies are "sports cars" if you ask me. Although the '03-'04 cobras were pretty damn impressive, the IRS kills it for me.  Corvettes and vipers don't count either.  I call my second gen a muscle car, but i'd call a g-body with a big block a hot rod.  Maybe i'm in the minority.  SRT-4's are tuner cars, whole different ball game.

Psst A muscle car is usually a mid size with a full frame and powerfull motor.  Camaros, Mustangs challengers and the like are pomy cars.  And silly two seaters are sports cars.  Quick compacts and subcompacts are usually called tuners.  Of course most anything modified into a more powerfull car is a hot rod though it's usually the twenties and thirties rides.  Little decline in fresh cars for a bit then the lead sleds and kustoms etc moved in replaced by the shoe boxes then bubble tops and then the muscle cars.  Of course none of thats gospel just opinion.  

I skimmed past a few trends but thats a readers digest sumary.  Pro this and that.  Some of those crazy sixties things are just nuts.  I'm not a cobalt or neon far although I think that they are headed in the right direction.  

So a '69 camaro and a '70 cuda wouldn't be muscle cars huh?  I guess the muscle car craze is really a pony car craze.  Whatever, they both had big block cars that ran hard.  Both were RWD, and you could tell a camaro from an economy car back then.  Too picky of a definition IMO.

"how many are owned by young guns"

That's a *** statement. There are plenty of younger guys running around with detroit tin, myself included. They may not be '70 cudas or '69 camaros,

The responce was for a stament referring to how many 69 Camaros were at an undisclosed track-  "You can find 40 '69 Camaro's for every neon or honda, and without even attending any car shows."  "Wow, 250-300 cars thats great, what track is it? So 40 '69 Camaro's for every Neon or Honda, but how many are owned by young guns and how many drove to the track and drove home?"

you forgot Yenkos and COPO's

you forgot Yenkos and COPO's

They were refered to as Super Cars-

Baldwin Motion was actually a partnership between Long Island's Baldwin Chevrolet and Joel Rosen's Motion Performance speed shop. In 1966, Joel Rosen approached the management of Baldwin Chevrolet with the idea of the dealership selling muscle cars customized by Motion to eager buyers. A partnership was born and the first Baldwin-Motion car was sold in 1967. The modifications were called "Phase III" and were available on the "Fantasic Five" - Corvettes, Camaros, Chevelles, Biscaynes, and Novas. Camaros were the most popular. Almost any performance upgrade was available, including 427 Camaros and eventually 454 Camaros without outputs from 450 to 600 bhp. The business grew as word spread and by 1971, Baldwin-Motion began modifying the Vega and doing a huge export and mail order business. The party was shut down in 1974 when the Federal government ordered an end to the customized car business. Motion Performance thus switched to only selling "off road use" parts packages and keeping up the export business. Motion Performance still sells performance parts today at its same location on Sunrise Highway on Long Island, New York.

Berger Chevrolet, located in Grand Rapids, Michigan, took a different approach then the other high performance dealers. Although Berger did a few conversions, they specialized in factory super cars, which made up nearly 20% of their sales. In 1969, Berger Chevrolet received as many as 50 COPO Camaros and another six COPO Chevelles. Berger also featured a strong parts department that even carried other GM parts such as Pontiac or Oldsmobile performance parts. Although the performance market died in the mid 1970s, Berger Chevrolet is still in business at its original location on 28th Street in Grand Rapids.

Located on Long Beach Blvd in South Gate, Los Angeles, Dana Chevrolet led the muscle car craze on the West Coast. #### Guldstrand (who later would gain prominence with his involvement with the Corvette), oversaw the development of the Dana 427 Camaro. Like Yenko, Dana started with a 1967 Camaro SS350, and replaced the 350 with a 1966 spec, 425 bhp L72 427. Numerous options were available including Traction Master traction bars, and race suspension systems. Even the Corvette's L71 435 bhp 427 engine was available.

Fred Gibb of Fred Gibb Chevrolet in La Harpe, Illinois, is best known as the father of the ZL-1. Fred Gibb Chevrolet started racing with a 1967 Chevrolet Camaro and through numerous drag race wins, built up a reputation as a high performance dealership. By 1968, Fred Gibb was doing 1 to 2 396 and 427 engine sways at the dealership per week. In addition, Fred Gibb Chevrolet sold about 50 COPO Nova's with 396/375 engines and a few 1969 COPO 9561 Camaros.

But it was the 1969 Camaro ZL-1 which would ensure Fred Gibb's mark on muscle car history. A close friend of Chevrolet's Vince Piggins, Fred Gibb helped develop the concept of the ultimate Camaro packing an aluminum 427 - the ZL-1. Chevrolet liked the idea, but wouldn't approve it unless it was guaranteed to sell 50 cars. Fred Gibb proclaimed that he could sell 50 cars himself, at a projected price of $4,900.00. So the concept was rushed to the assembly line. The first two Dusk Blue ZL-1 Camaros (COPO 9560) arrived at the dealership on December 31, 1968 exactly as specified. Another 48 cars were then delivered in March, 1969. One problem though - the sticker price was not $4,900 but rather a startling $7,269, nearly double the price of a cast-iron 427 Camaro (COPO 9561). The high cost was due to a new GM policy that stated that instead of the auto manufacturer absorbing most of research and development cost associated with specialty vehicles, it would be passed on to the cost of the vehicle, driving up the cost of the COPO 9560 option from an estimated $400 to $4,000. Knowing that there was no way that he could sell 50 Camaros at this price, Fred Gibb successfully convinced Chevrolet to take 37 of the cars back, re-invoice them, and re-distribute them to other high performance Chevrolet dealers. This was the first time the factory ever allowed a dealer to return cars. Fred Gibb was able to sell 13 ZL-1 Camaros, and an additional 19 ZL-1's were built and sold by other dealers, resulting in a total production run of 69 ZL-1 Camaros.

Nickey Chevrolet, based in Chicago, was perhaps the biggest factory performance sales and service shop anywhere, anytime. Founded in 1925 by Edward and John Stephani, Nickey Chevrolet grew to a huge 200,000 square foot facility in the 1960s that boasted the largest inventory of "Genuine Chevrolet High Performance Parts." Nickey Chevrolet began its high performance parts business in 1957 and immediately went racing with some success. Their "Purple People Eater" Corvettes became famous and soon everyone knew that Nickey was spelled with a backwards "k". Nickey specialized in engine swaps, and dropped 427s in late '60s Camaros and soon turned to Nova's and Chevelles with 427s or the Z/28's 302 V8. The 454 was added in 1970 and any other part was available through Nickey's extensive parts department.

Perhaps the best known of the high performance dealers was Yenko Chevrolet, based in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania, roughly 25 miles from Pittsburgh. A sucessful racer, Don Yenko first dipped into the performance market in 1965 with his "stinger" Corvairs. Next came the first Yenko Super Camaro in 1967 which was a Camaro which had its 350 pulled out and the Corvettes L72 427 engine dropped in, along with other heavy-duty hardware and performance upgrades. Yenko did the same for 1968, but started with a Camaro SS396. In 1969, Yenko was able to order factory built COPO 9561 Camaros with 427s installed at the factory. With special stripping and badging, the Yenko Camaros were real eye-catchers. But Yenko didn't stop there, and also ordered CORP Chevelles which came with 427s from the factory. But his wildest creation was the Yenko Nova S/C which featured a dealer installed 427 engine. The Nova actually was the lightest of the three vehicles and had the best weight distribution so were actually the fastest of the Yenko Super Cars. Just a few were sold, as they were so fast (0-60 in 4 seconds) that they were downright dangerous. In retrospect, Yenko remarked that "this probably wasn't the safest car in the world." In 1970, high insurance costs reduced the market for super cars and Yenko only offered his Yenko Deuce, a Nova with the LT-1 350 from the Corvette rated at a stout 360 bhp. About 200 were built, as they could be insured as a 350 Nova. For 1971, Yenko only offered a Stinger Vega and the performance era was officially over. Yenko, and three passengers, were tragically killed when his Cessna 210 crashed in West Virginia on March 5, 1987.

In 1968, Baldwin Motion the Phase III Camaro was guaranteed to turn 11.50 1/4 miles times at over 120 mph with a M/P (Modified Production) licensed driver on an NHRA or AHRA sanctioned track. This car was "reliable & streetable" and was able to run these times shortly after being driven off the showroom floor. The warranty on the SS-427 Camaro was 90 days or 4000 miles on the powertrain and 24 months/24000 miles on the rest of the car - excluding all speed options. There was no warranty on any engine that was fitted with "internal engine modifications", such as a camshaft and high rev-kit.

Cars such as this were also built by other well known conversion shops such as #### Harrell Performance in Kansas City Missouri & Bill Thomas Race Cars in Anaheim California.

This was my favorite super car -Motion GUARANTEED 10 sec. 1/4 mile ETs

1971 Baldwin Motion Vega (Phase III)

I don't know about you guys but where i live (tucson, AZ) gook-mobiles are taking over. i went to "run watcha brung" night at my local strip, only to wait 2 or 3 hours in staging because the ricers kept breaking half-shafts of the starting line. kids with imports think they own the streets because they have a coffee can muffler and some cheap pep-boys rims. its getting so bad, that in traffic, i saw a ford fiesta, repeat ford fiesta with an actual uban coffee can for a muffler, a PLYWOOD spoiler and SALEEN stickers off of a mustang. im not sure if it was a joke, but there was a young kid driving so...