The $3500 challenge

Big motor mastery???  I don't think so. Tim needs to understand a little more about engines (especially Oldsmobiles) before he starts working on them. No wonder it only ran 14's. He would have run quicker if he left the longblock alone and just put the intake and headers on it. When he pulled the heads and replaced the thin factory head gasket with a thicker one, he drop the compression even lower than the dismal factory compression! Then on top of it, he put a bigger cam in it to bleed off even more cylinder pressure!! That cam is the worst cam he could have possibly put in there. It was designed for a SBC about 15 or more years ago. It has the slowest ramps in the world and Oldsmobiles don't like it one bit. Oldsmobiles don't like dual pattern cams either. You'd be lucky to get 145 psi cranking pressure. He should have milled the heads for 70cc chambers and use a .028 thick gasket to bring CR to 9.1:1 and used an Engle cam with 260/266 advertised duration advanced 4 degrees. THEN, you'll have traction problems.

Forget head milling.  That "dismal factory compression" is just begging for some turbocharging!

(a very conservative "low boost" plot based on 80% VE, 5,500 rpm rev limit,  a 0.6 BSFC and obsolete T-series turbos)

Another couple of grand in the budget and the Old Olds would have major traction problems (even with a 5,500 rpm limit, obsolete iron heads and cast iron log manifolds . . . and that's BEFORE hitting the N20 switch . . . .)

Yeah, but, turbos and nitrous are for small blocks. Big blocks can take care of themselves! Besides, I wasn't using anymore of their budget, just making wiser decisions.  

Huh?

It guess that's why they have a big block power-adder class in HRM's Drag Week (tm).

When some guy with a 740+hp Supra smokes your "all motor" big block, you'll always be able to fall back on the wisdom that "Big blocks can take care of themselves."

BTW, back in 2001, Hot Rod ran a story on a guy who did a big block turbo motor for a claimed $3,000 (714 lbs/ft of torque).  Now while this month's Rust-Olds couldn't match that (they did the whole heap for $3,500--or so they claim), turbos can be a great bang for the buck.

http://speedzzter.blogspot.com ;

Raise the compression, use a more modern cam...and definitely make it a single pattern (or one very close to a single pattern).  14's is pathetic for a big block olds thats had ANY work done to it.  Unless of course...traction is the problem...then its understandable...cuz thats a given with BBO torque...but if you cant control tire-spin better than that...you shouldn't be driving an Olds...go get one of those turbo setups that don't make any power down low (that deliver the massive HP numbers).  

BTW  740HP out of a Supra is nothing.  I've seen 1492HP out of one that looks bone stock on the outside...it also required a 150 shot of nitrous just to spool up the turbos.

Cam and compression on a stock-block, factory head casting big block Olds won't stand a chance against any number of power-adder engines. 

 But a low-buck turbocharged "BBO" will make enough torque and horsepower to whip about 99% of the stuff you're likely to run up against.  That's a whole lot better than being an import tuner whipping boy with an "all motor" antique (in my opinion).

And a two-step boost controller can be used to manage the traction issue.

Besides a turbo "BBO" could make absolutely sick midrange torque(unlike most 3-liter turbo mills) and serious top-end power.  And if you don't give a rip about the top end, small turbos could pack in over 700 lbs/ft as low as 2,000 r.p.m.

I also wasn't suggesting that 750 is the limit for a turbo Supra.  It's clearly not (nearly every issue of any import magazine has some 1,000+ hp "tuner whip").  I picked that number based on what I expect a factory Olds block might live under, because it was around the output expected from the turbo map posted earlier in this thread (assuming twin turbos),  and because imports with less than 1,000 horsepower are far more common than the occasional, pro-built,  four-digit import power monster.

http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

A big block olds with a mild rebuild can handle its own against most domestics...a 200 HP import is hardly worth mentioning.

A 1,500 pound car with 200 h.p. has a better power-to-weight ratio than a 3,500 pound car with 450 h.p.  (just do the math for yourself and see)

But we're not talking about "200 h.p. imports."  We're talking about 400+ h.p. imports as well as all sorts of V8 pony cars and even the occasional boosted six-cylinder.

To keep the obsolete Olds in the game against these sorts of cars at a reasonable price, you've either got to get the weight way, way down or step up to some sort of serious power adder (or you could spend big money to remake the "BBO" into a somewhat high-rpm "all motor" lump (big-port aluminum heads, roller cam, etc.) that would be simply unliveable as a daily driver) 

A mild flat-tappet "juice stick" and milled iron heads simply won't make anywhere near enough power to hang with a built DSM, WRX, EV0, V8 Mustang, SVT Cobra or almost anything with a modified LSx.  Even a bone-stock new Corvette, GT500 or SRT-8 Mopar would slaughter the old-school "compression-n-cam" Olds.  There's even a fair number of old SBCs that would put the hurt to it.

Nor will the cheap "all motor" method suggested in this thread have anywhere near as much average torque  of most power adder set ups(and torque is what it takes to get a heavy V8 muscle car to ET well).

If you want to putt around in the 13s or high 12s on the pump-gas threshold of detonation, then by all means order a cheapo cam and cut the iron heads for compression.   But if you want to run with the big dogs for as little as possible, you've got to step up to a power adder.  All things considered, turbocharging is the best, most flexible one available.  (Besides, Oldsmobile first brought turbocharging to the streets--even if they didn't figure out how to make it work right)

Milling the heads mostly prevents stepping up to a power adder on pump gas.

http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

I hear ya on not spending any more of their budget.

But I agree that milling the heads limits FUTURE upgrades.  Maybe it makes some sense if the rules/laws prevent forced induction, or if they were never, ever, ever going to spend more than $3,500 on that rusty Olds,  or if they're just too stupid/lazy/hard-headed to figure out how to build and tune a forced induction powerplant.

But if you want the option of upgrading it in the future (without a lengthy JY search for some unmilled low-comp heads), it's a wiser choice to leave them alone and figure out how to make power with them.  That's all I was saying.

And I was pointing out that a low-buck turbo set up would rock a whole hoard of more expensive machinery for less than what a lot of folks are blowing on show-car paint jobs, aftermarket stroker motors, giant car audio systems,  or useless bling.

That ought to be the CC way, right?

No high production car weighs 1500 lbs.  Not a civic, not a supra, not a wrx, not an evo, NOTHING.  The most powerful DSM I've ever seen in person belongs to a good friend of mine...made about 300 HP on the chassis dyno.  He's also loaded, dumped a ton of money into it, and took really good care of the thing...something MOST import guys don't do.  How many imports have you honestly seen in person making over 400HP?  I've never seen one...and I live in a college town where imports are all the rage.  V8 Mustangs are not fast (com'on...high 13, low 14 second quarter mile times are not fast)...SVT Cobra's are.  For the price of that brand new vette, GT500, SRT-8, cadillac CTS-V, STS-V, WRX STi, Evo xxx, or LSx powered camaro/firebird, and you could have one hell of an olds engine, with a matching trans, rearend, plus the paint and body work to make it look nice...and a seperate daily driver that gets 30 MPG.

A 500 HP olds can easily make it into the 11's.  Any faster and you are required to put in a roll cage (either that or stay away from the tracks...).  That kinda takes away from the budget thing...and also the sleeper thing (which some of us want).  Car Craft recently covered the buildup of a 425 Olds.  The thing made 470 HP with a very mild build.  By simply adding a torker intake instead of the performer, another 20 HP could be attained (straight from Car Craft's article).  Choose a different cam with slighly higher duration and you're golden (the cam in there produced 16.5" of vacuum...more than enough...so go bigger...and get just enough).  That particular motor also did not have an actual peak torque number measured...that because the dyno didn't read low enough to actually "see" the peak torque.  That one cost something along the lines of $6000.  Most of that was because they used custom rods and pistons.  A cost easily averted...another cost easily averted was the aluminum pulleys ($100).  I could list more...but to what point...a 455 will make more power yet...and be easier to find.

I'm pretty sure that if you do a basic rebuild on a BBO (consider it required...since thats the way this thread started), buy a welder, pay for welding classes, buy a tubing bender (or pay someone else to fabricate the turbo pipes for you), buy the tubing to be bent, buy the turbos, buy a blow through carb, relocate all the accessories to make room for two turbos (also probably requiring fabrication skills and equipment most people don't own), and buy a suitable "hat" for the carb...and you're probably at more cost than a decent buildup on the BBO with a set of Edelbrock heads.  And for each senario you have to get a strong transmission and rear end...a stronger suspension would certainly be helpful as well.  All taking away from the whole "budget" thing.

11 seconds is plenty fast enough for the street...and its really not hard to get with a big block olds.  This is straight from Car Craft's article last month on 500 HP mills...thats with a 3800 lb car too.

The whole point of this hobby is to take "obsolete" equipment and use it...in some cases make it better.  You are on the wrong site if you think differently.  Here at carcraft we LOVE classic V8's...the oldsmobiles, the buicks, the pontiacs, the fords, and of course...the chevy's.  All are "obsolete"  Car Craft stopped covering LS1's because people don't care around here.  We like old stuff.  I'm tired of hearing this crap that if you don't have a turbo then you are trash.  Some people like high compression...and big cams...and big carbs.  Some people think its a cop-out to bolt on a power adder...because it requires a lot more skill to make 700 HP naturally aspirated than it does to bolt on a blower, or turbo, or nitrous.  The only time it requires the same amount of skill, is when you max out the power adder...in which case 700 HP is nothing.  Some people (crazy as they are) like manual drum brakes...like manual steering.  Some people like a plain old 4-speed...and don't want a 5 or 6 speed with overdrive.  You need to be a lot more tolerant of other people...and quit acting like you are top dog...I think its pathetic that you have to start a new thread just to draw attention to your now-ignored turbo thread...I think its pathetic you have to put a turbo ad in every thread having to do with an engine.  You and your turbo crazy friends are so aggressive with your attacks against anyone who doesn't want a turbo, that it makes people like me (who at one time wanted turbos on two of my cars) not want to even consider them anymore.  You put this crap in every thread that you can.  If it talks about power, you can be sure someone will try to push a turbo on you.  If I wanted to hear about turbos, I'd go to HOTROD, or an import site.

Turbocharging is by far the most COMPLICATED power adder you can possibly put on a car, especially one that didn't have it from the factory.  Nitrous is by far the most flexible, easiest to use and hook up, and cheapest.  Turbo charging is the most EFFICIENT power adder...that doesn't make it the best.

What do you actually drive anyhow?  Have YOU done one of these "cheap" turbo setups that blow the doors off every car ever built?  Seems as though most of the turbo freaks haven't...as they never reference personal experience...or even talk about their project.

agreed. I hear all the time from import drivers about, man that car is so heavy, it gotta make alot of power to go fast. weighs in about 3200 lbs. weight of a honda civic about 2800 lbs. thats an si model with its weight saving chassis. 400lbs pound difference isnt that much, expecially with 5.4 more liters and at least 300 more h.p. Sure it doesnt get great gas milage, but for a non-overdrive car with 7.4 liters, I think 13 mpg is decent. Also agreed on how they dont take care of the cars. Lots of them smoke out the tailpipe from high milage and over reving, and they think its because of the new fart pipe they put on. Fastest import, well should I say ricer I have seen at the track ran a 13.05, and it was a SRT Neon with a few mods. Slowest I've seen was a 19.34, that was a civic with a wing and a fart pipe. Power adders are nice for those who have the time and money for a good set up, but nothing wrong like some good ol n/a power  

No high production car weighs 1500 lbs. Not a civic, not a supra, not a wrx, not an evo, NOTHING.

Not stock.  But there are plenty of lightweight CRXs and other gutted imports that do approach that weight.  And virtually any of the popular modified turbocharged imports only have of 7.5 lbs per horse or even less.

 How many imports have you honestly seen in person making over 400HP?

Quite a few.  Of course the average "riced out" import has more than 10 pounds per h.p.   But this thread isn't about beating them because the $3,500 Rustmoblie --as published in CC-- will already do that!  

On the other hand, the cam-n-compression modification suggested really has nothing for the top 4-5% of street cars.

  For the price of that brand new vette, GT500, SRT-8, cadillac CTS-V, STS-V, WRX STi, Evo xxx, or LSx powered camaro/firebird, and you could have one hell of an olds engine, with a matching trans, rearend, plus the paint and body work to make it look nice...and a seperate daily driver that gets 30 MPG.

That's irrelevant because nobody is talking about spending "the price of that brand new [whatever]. . . ." Still, when you're lined-up against one of those expensive "whatevers," wouldn't it be a gas to have something for them?  And not just by a fender, either!

A 500 HP olds can easily make it into the 11's.

On sticky street tires,  500 h.p. ought to get you to close to the 11.60s under optimal conditions in the typical street-weight A Body.  But you'll have to seriously compromise streetability with an "all motor" smog iron-headed Olds of that power level.  Sure it can be done and has been thousands of times over the past 40 years.  But probably not for $3,500 for the whole car unless you have the engine building skills of Jon Kaase and the porting know-how of Joe Mondello . . . .  Of course the guy in the next lane with a chip and pulley on his stock GT500 or supercharged SVT Cobra, or with spray on his LSx F-body is going to eat your lunch . . .  .

Any faster and you are required to put in a roll cage (either that or stay away from the tracks...). That kinda takes away from the budget thing...and also the sleeper thing (which some of us want).

You should be adding safety equipment at 11.99.  http://www.nhra.com/contacts/tech_faq.html  It only starts getting really expensive when you run quicker than 10.00 or faster than 135 m.p.h. in the quarter.

Car Craft recently covered the buildup of a 425 Olds. The thing made 470 HP with a very mild build. By simply adding a torker intake instead of the performer, another 20 HP could be attained (straight from Car Craft's article). Choose a different cam with slighly higher duration and you're golden (the cam in there produced 16.5" of vacuum...more than enough...so go bigger...and get just enough). Streetable? That particular motor also did not have an actual peak torque number measured...that because the dyno didn't read low enough to actually "see" the peak torque. That one cost something along the lines of $6000.

Wouldn't it have been interesting if they'd have also spent the same money on a budget turbo "BBO?"  Any bets on which one would have made the most area under the curve?

 Most of that was because they used custom rods and pistons. A cost easily averted...another cost easily averted was the aluminum pulleys ($100). I could list more...but to what point...a 455 will make more power yet...and be easier to find.

Yeah, and the average iron-head 455 with cheap bolt-ons only is about a 400-425 h.p. piece. 

I'm pretty sure that if you do a basic rebuild on a BBO (consider it required...since thats the way this thread started), buy a welder, pay for welding classes, buy a tubing bender (or pay someone else to fabricate the turbo pipes for you), buy the tubing to be bent, buy the turbos, buy a blow through carb, relocate all the accessories to make room for two turbos (also probably requiring fabrication skills and equipment most people don't own), and buy a suitable "hat" for the carb...and you're probably at more cost than a decent buildup on the BBO with a set of Edelbrock heads.

Guys like Mike Sitar and other budget turbo builders must just be crazy, then.   Nobody said Car Crafting was for the lazy person.  On the other hand,  there's not too many ways to make over 700 h.p. with a hunk of cast-off iron like the average "BBO" that's absolutely streetable, gets reasonable mileage, is completely tractable, and won't cost as much as a new Korean car than with a turbo.

And for each senario you have to get a strong transmission and rear end...a stronger suspension would certainly be helpful as well.

You need all that with 500 h.p.

The whole point of this hobby is to take "obsolete" equipment and use it...in some cases make it better.

How does turbocharging detract from that?

 I'm tired of hearing this crap that if you don't have a turbo then you are trash.

Who said that?

Some people like high compression...and big cams...and big carbs.

And CC covers that.  What's your point?

 Some people think its a cop-out to bolt on a power adder...because it requires a lot more skill to make 700 HP naturally aspirated than it does to bolt on a blower, or turbo, or nitrous.

No it just takes a lot more money and a high tolerance for bad fuel economy, a rough idle,  and no bottom end to speak of.   The basics of cam/carb/compression/headers and porting aren't really all that complicated or mysterious (unless you're building 9,500 r.p.m. NASCAR lumps or pro stockers or an Engine Masters (tm) competition mill).  A lot more people know about them than about making REAL power with forced induction.

The only time it requires the same amount of skill, is when you max out the power adder...in which case 700 HP is nothing.

Isn't this inconsistent with your earlier point about how hard it is to build your own turbo "kit?"

 Some people (crazy as they are) like manual drum brakes...like manual steering. Some people like a plain old 4-speed...and don't want a 5 or 6 speed with overdrive.

Grandma wanted to cook on a wood stove, too. That doesn't mean that everyone has to or that all the "budget" cooking magazines ought to ONLY be about wood stove cooking, does it?

You need to be a lot more tolerant of other people...and quit acting like you are top dog...

How am I intolerant of old school rodders?   The intolerant ones are the folks who go ballistic at the mention of applying turbocharging to "big blocks" or any other V8 (see earlier in this thread for examples)

I think its pathetic that you have to start a new thread just to draw attention to your now-ignored turbo thread...I think its pathetic you have to put a turbo ad in every thread having to do with an engine.

I didn't start this thread.  And the "now-ignored turbo thread" isn't my property.  And did I even mention that other thread?

 You and your turbo crazy friends are so aggressive with your attacks against anyone who doesn't want a turbo, that it makes people like me (who at one time wanted turbos on two of my cars) not want to even consider them anymore.

I can't recall any "turbo crazy" poster attacking anyone.  Facts and logical points aren't "attacks."  And all anyone has asked for is a tiny bit of budget  turbo tech. Nobody is suggesting CC become "Turbo Craft."  BTW, you'd really let how somebody else acts dissuade you from using a particular technology?  Believe me, there's a lot more "aggressive and arrogant" jerks out there with N20 and/or Dominator/King Demon carbs than there are "turbo crazy" jerks with American V8s . . . .

You put this crap in every thread that you can. If it talks about power, you can be sure someone will try to push a turbo on you. If I wanted to hear about turbos, I'd go to HOTROD, or an import site.

Hot Rod is doing homebuilt turbo builds on cheap V8s? Who knew? All I remember seeing is pro-built, best-of-everything "designer" builds (like Freiburger's F-Bomb, Trepanier's Biscayne, and twin-turbo Vipers).  I haven't really seen any grassroots stuff (not even like that bitchin' V6 Skylark in the current CC, except in tiny photos from events--no tech)

Turbocharging is by far the most COMPLICATED power adder you can possibly put on a car, especially one that didn't have it from the factory. Nitrous is by far the most flexible, easiest to use and hook up, and cheapest.

But spray is all-or-nothing unless you have expensive timers.  It's useless for anything except full throttle (unlike turbocharging or supercharging) And squeeze doesn't stay very cheap if you hit the bottle often. 

  Turbo charging is the most EFFICIENT power adder...that doesn't make it the best.

Didn't I say "all things considered?"   If the block is only going to stand 750 or so, and the el cheapo factory heads are a huge bottleneck, and traction is an issue, why would you want to make it worse with the violent on-or-off hit of a 250+ h.p. spray system or to give back 100+ h.p. to drive a supercharger? 

What do you actually drive anyhow? Have YOU done one of these "cheap" turbo setups that blow the doors off every car ever built? Seems as though most of the turbo freaks haven't...as they never reference personal experience...or even talk about their project.

The doctors made me quit driving when they committed me to the asylum . . . . Hopefully they will capture all the green monsters out on the interstate by the time I get out . . . .

Sorry you're ticked off.  That wasn't the intent.  Live well and prosper (and watch out for the MONSTERS!)

Here's the rest of the previous message for your egg- and rotten-fruit-throwing enjoyment . . . .

How am I intolerant of old school rodders?   The intolerant ones are the folks who go ballistic at the mention of applying turbocharging to "big blocks" or any other V8 (see earlier in this thread for examples)

I think its pathetic that you have to start a new thread just to draw attention to your now-ignored turbo thread...I think its pathetic you have to put a turbo ad in every thread having to do with an engine.

I didn't start this thread.  And the "now-ignored turbo thread" isn't my property.  And did I even mention that other thread?

 You and your turbo crazy friends are so aggressive with your attacks against anyone who doesn't want a turbo, that it makes people like me (who at one time wanted turbos on two of my cars) not want to even consider them anymore.

I can't recall any "turbo crazy" poster attacking anyone.  Facts and logical points aren't "attacks."  And all anyone has asked for is a tiny bit of budget  turbo tech. Nobody is suggesting CC become "Turbo Craft."  BTW, you'd really let how somebody else acts dissuade you from using a particular technology?  Believe me, there's a lot more "aggressive and arrogant" jerks out there with N20 and/or Dominator/King Demon carbs than there are "turbo crazy" jerks with American V8s . . . .

You put this crap in every thread that you can. If it talks about power, you can be sure someone will try to push a turbo on you. If I wanted to hear about turbos, I'd go to HOTROD, or an import site.

Hot Rod is doing homebuilt turbo builds on cheap V8s? Who knew? All I remember seeing is pro-built, best-of-everything "designer" builds (like Freiburger's F-Bomb, Trepanier's Biscayne, and twin-turbo Vipers).  I haven't really seen any grassroots stuff (not even like that bitchin' V6 Skylark in the current CC, except in tiny photos from events--no tech)

Turbocharging is by far the most COMPLICATED power adder you can possibly put on a car, especially one that didn't have it from the factory. Nitrous is by far the most flexible, easiest to use and hook up, and cheapest.

But spray is all-or-nothing unless you have expensive timers.  It's useless for anything except full throttle (unlike turbocharging or supercharging) And squeeze doesn't stay very cheap if you hit the bottle often. 

  Turbo charging is the most EFFICIENT power adder...that doesn't make it the best.

Didn't I say "all things considered?"   If the block is only going to stand 750 or so, and the el cheapo factory heads are a huge bottleneck, and traction is an issue, why would you want to make it worse with the violent on-or-off hit of a 250+ h.p. spray system or to give back 100+ h.p. to drive a supercharger? 

What do you actually drive anyhow? Have YOU done one of these "cheap" turbo setups that blow the doors off every car ever built? Seems as though most of the turbo freaks haven't...as they never reference personal experience...or even talk about their project.

The doctors made me quit driving when they committed me to the asylum . . . . Hopefully they will capture all the green monsters out on the interstate by the time I get out . . . .

Sorry you're ticked off.  That wasn't the intent.  Live well and prosper (and watch out for the MONSTERS!)

"But if you want to run with the big dogs..."

"To keep the obsolete Olds in the game..."

"or if they're just too stupid/lazy/hard-headed to figure out how to build and tune a forced induction powerplant."

"Turbos are for the mechanical elite of our sport."

"Ignorance and fear of the unknown, not cost or complexity, are the greatest enemies of grassroots turbocharging." ~I'm pretty sure EVERYONE knows how a turbocharger works...its not unknown...its having to fabricate your own stuff that most people CANT do.  Not to mention turbocharging is specific to each individual application.  A small block chevy will have a different turbo setup in a camaro than in a chevelle.  And big blocks are different...accessories are different.  

"Apparently some on this board cannot appreciate anything but primered heaps with junkyard engines, carburetors, nitrous oxide and other tired, inefficient ways of making a car perform better."

"Discussion threads such as this one force no one to give up their pitiful little cast-iron small blocks or their cherished 1960s mentality."

"Otherwise,  aim your rusty, smoking piles of automotive 'bliss' and 'purity' back towards your respective trailer houses and leave this particular thread to those who are 'not rich' but 'aren't stupid.'"

"I'm sure some CC readers will still complain that it wasn't accomplished with a couple rolls of duct tape and an old Holley double-pumper."

"Don't you just love it when the NERDS imitate US?" ~do you honestly think that students at the most prestigious technical school in the world are imitating ANYONE?  Hell no...they may be discussing technology already in place...but they are developing different aspects of it...particuarly a 3 month fuel cell.  I'm developing a solar water heating system in my research...am I imitating anyone?  You may say yes...but you have never read any research about making a solar water heating system using grooved heat pipes (if you'd like to know what a heat pipe is...I'd love to discuss it...but since at the moment it has little relevance to the automotive industry...though I do have ideas...I'll leave it out of here...you can email me if you're really interested).  Also, this particular quote happens to be the post that has its own thread to draw attention to the annoying-as-hell "rich not stupid" thread.

All of those quotes have a "I'm better than you" tone.  Its gotten old.  

As I said earlier...the thread in question is not this one (its this one http://forums.carcraft.primediaautomotive.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=carcraft&msg=3017.1&ctx=0) ...this one actually had some relevance to begin with (until infected with the turbo crowd's relentless pushing).  This thread had to do with building an oldsmobile...something I highly doubt you or speedzzter know anything about.  Instead you gave the same old answer "bolt on a turbo!".  I would love to just have a conversation with analogkid455 about building a big block olds...since I actually have one...I'd love to discuss building a small block olds...since I also have one of those (actually two)...I do not care to discuss a turbo...I'd like to have the motor first...the motor has to be built first in order to put on a turbo.  He never asked about building a turbo for it.  

A 500 HP Olds Big Block IS streetable...ask the guy who started this thread (analogkid455)...he has one (or did)...one that runs in the 11's.  You are so ignorant to actual engine building to know that 500 HP is very streetable nowadays...especially for a big block that displaces 450+ cubic inches.  Big block olds AREN'T built for high rpm...hardly ever.  Why, you not-so-Olds_savvy people may ask...CUZ THEY MAKE A TON OF TORQUE!  Not to mention oiling problems at upper rpms...can be corrected...but limits the bolt on thing unless taken care of during buildup.  The point is they don't need big lumpy cams to make power...they are plenty streetable

I don't care if people want to discuss turbos...but only when its needed...which means...when someone is building a setup and wants information...has a turbo setup and is having problems...or is contemplating a REAL project in the NEAR future and needs help getting started.  Instead of saying "hey why don't you take on a complicated and fabrication intensive project and put a couple of turbos on that car that you can barely afford to drop a rebuilt-stock engine into"  You forget that the turbos are not the only cost involved here...transmission, rearend, suspension...all has to be upgraded for any serious power...I have NEVER heard anyone discuss that in their turbo push.  Its "hey look how much power you can get" but never "oh...sorry you broke the input drum in your trans...and twisted the drive shaft in two...and sheared the teeth off your ring gear...and fragged your posi unit...and sheared off the splines on your axles..."  If you want un-godly fast...then yeah...turbos...heavy nitrous hits...superchargers...or any combination is the way to go.  But if you are looking for serious budget...you gotta build to what you have.  Rearends are expensive...transmissions are expensive...either that or you are limited to a turbo 400 which is massively inefficient and has no overdrive...limiting rear gears or highway speeds.  I'm going to a stock 425 in my 85 Delta 88...and I have to put in a TH400...and either never drive it hard...or find at least an 8.5" 10 bolt to put in it...THAT COSTS MONEY!!  And that thing is making no where near the power levels you are talking about.  I'm on a bare bones budget and I won't be able to use the power I've got because of drivetrain costs!  How are you going to sit here and tell me that anyone can afford to drop a pair of turbos on anything?

I don't doubt that it was not your intent to piss me off...and I've had good discussions with you and others on opposing sides.  But just look at the quotes above...that is not "tolerant" in my book.  I hate that attitude...

Edited 10/26/2006 7:36 pm by CSIROC

http://www.oldsperformanceproducts.com/gallery.asp?page=5
Thats a small block

http://www.oldsperformanceproducts.com/gallery.asp?page=2
The 68...stock block...factory heads.  There are plenty of turbo, supercharged, and nitrous equipped cars that'll beat...not all of em...definitely not the all out cars...but thats a respectable number from any car.

There are plenty more fast oldsmobiles from that site...take a look...really cool stuff.

I love Oldsmobiles!