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So Were not rich but we arent stupid

 
460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/09/11
08:42 AM

TURBO TIP OF THE DAY: "The problem is that you need to figure out which turbo is the best size for your application. [T]his is when math enters the building. The good news is that I have done most of it for you." – 1ajeremy, Nutts and Bolts: The 1AAutoBlog

On-line Turbo Selection Calculators, Part II

The next turbo selection calculator is from Car Craft forum member 1ajeremy. Linked to a 1AAuto Blog post entitled "Determining the Air Flow of an Engine" is a "protected" Microsoft Excel spreadsheet for estimating turbo sizing.

The 1AAuto Blog Turbo sizing spreadsheet requires a few more inputs than the Ray Hall "Turbo Match" application. Users must input into non-protected cells, grouped into a convenient box, the following data:  

–Cubic Inches
–Volumetric Efficiency
–Boost Pressure
–Ambient Temperature
–Compressor Efficiency Range
–Intercooler Efficiency Range
–Intercooler Pressure Drop (psi)
–Air Filter Pressure Drop (psi)
–Engine Compression Ratio

Based on these inputs, it calculates naturally-aspirated CFM, turbocharged CFM, and turbocharged lbs/min of air flow.  It provides values from 200 r.p.m. to 10,000 r.p.m. in 250 r.p.m. steps.

Spreadsheet users cannot change base atmospheric pressure to account for altitude or changes in air density. However, because most compressor maps are corrected to sea level air density at 85 degrees fahrenheit, this may not be much of a problem.

A bigger problem is the inability to vary VE based on r.p.m.  Users are faced with the choice of using an average VE (which may underestimate efficiencies near the torque peak) or the peak VE (which will overestimate air flow at the margins of the torque curve).   For example, the three "stages" of a 466 BBF for which we estimated a baseline VE should produce the following average and peak VE numbers:

466 BBF with Edelbrock Performer RPM Cam and Intake:

Average VE: 81.35%
Peak VE: 91.32% at 4,000 r.p.m.

466 BBF with Edelbrock Performer RPM Heads, Cam and Intake:

Average VE: 84.83%
Peak VE: 92.20% at 4,500 r.p.m.  

466 BBF with Kaase P51 heads and single-plane intake:

Average VE: 88.93%
Peak VE: 96.55% at 4,800 r.p.m.

Note that the "spreads" between peak and average VE are between eight and ten percent.  Thus, the air flow results will be significantly different, depending upon which VE estimate is applied.

A third limitation is that the spreadsheet has no provision for estimating a boost curve.  The spreadsheet apparently assumes an immediate full-boost threshold.  In the real world, turbos cannot produce full boost over the entire r.p.m. range. Thus,  showing CFM and lbs/min increases at idle and near-idle engine speeds is somewhat misleading. If the low r.p.m. air flow estimates from the spreadsheet are used uncritically, they could lead to mistaken conclusions about whether or not a particular turbo compressor would be operating at or near the surge line.

Still, the 1AAuto Blog spreadsheet is useful for quick "what-if" testing of various parameters. Here are some similar assumptions to those input into the "Turbo Match" simulation:

–Cubic Inches: 466
–Volumetric Efficiency: 85%
–Boost Pressure: 18 psi
–Ambient Temperature: 85 degrees
–Compressor Efficiency Range: 70%
–Intercooler Efficiency Range: 80%
–Intercooler Pressure Drop (psi): 1.0 psi
–Air Filter Pressure Drop (psi): 0.2 psi
–Engine Compression Ratio: 8.5:1

These variables yielded the following data:

6250 r.p.m. -- 107.85 lbs/min; 1434.27 CFM

6500 r.p.m. -- 112.17 lbs/min; 1491.64 CFM

These results are close to the Ray Hall "Turbo Match" prediction.

Users of the 1AAuto Blog spreadsheet must find their own turbo compressor maps, however, and the program's protected nature does not lend itself to plotting or sharing of results.

The 1AAuto Blog spreadsheet is a good step up over "Turbo Match." It is simple to use. Quick changes to average VE and other variables are possible. But for the advanced turbo Car Crafter it probably does not have enough flexibility or comparative abilities.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/09/11
08:55 AM

TURBO PHOTO OF THE DAY

69 Firstturbo Canam ST Jovite
1969 Can-Am turbo set-up.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/10/11
09:02 AM

TURBO PHOTO OF THE DAYP1020001 55 Proj  
Turbine Tech Camaro

I guess that one's not going to work.

Second attempt:

3143750 2

Future Shock: MRT/Fullauto Hybrid Turbo Lincoln  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/11/11
03:04 PM

TURBO PHOTO OF THE DAY:Camp 0812 11 2000 Chevy Camaro Engine
Turbo 3800 Camaro  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

idrivejunk idrivejunk
Guru | Posts: 1050 | Joined: 12/09
Posted: 03/11/11
07:50 PM

Grin  Wink  Cool  
idrivejunk

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/12/11
06:23 AM

TURBO TIP OF THE DAY: "[Not2Fast Turbo Calculator] is really not a 'turbo' calculator . . . it is really an intake tract simulator, performing thermodynamic analysis of the intake flow and approximating how much torque can be expected given some numbers that characterize the other efficiencies of the motor." --   Eric Fahlgren, Not2Fast.com

On-line Turbo Selection Calculators, Part III

Eric Fahlgren, Nate Stuart and Marc Swanson programmed the Not2Fast Turbo  Calculator. For knowledgable Car Crafters, it is a good tool for turbocharger compressor selection.  it is also helpful on more advanced topics, such as charge air cooling and water injection.

A helpful feature of the Not2Fast Turbo  Calculator is the availibility of compressor maps for automatic plotting of the peak results. It also calculates how large each cylinder's fuel injector would need to be to support the estimated power.

The downsides of the Not2Fast Turbo  Calculator are:

--For beginners, it requires determination and entry of a larger number of variables than some less sophisticated on-line turbo calculators.

--It requires entry of bore and stroke in millimeters instead of inches and produces temperature and fuel injector size results in metric units.

--It requires use of average VE estimates instead of allowing a VE curve.

--It only yields peak results and does not predict either a boost or torque curve.

--It assumes a single turbocharger, so for multiple turbocharger simulations, users are forced to divide the number of cylinders by the number of turbos and then mannually add together the horsepower and torque predictions.

--Novice users can easily simulate charge air cooling and water-methanol injection scenarios with it that simply will not work in the real world.

--It does not allow for charge air coolant temperatures less than ambient (i.e. ice or brine water coolants sometimes used in drag racing and land speed racing).

Still, for a free on-line tool, the Not2Fast Turbo  Calculator is highly useful.

Using similar assumptions to the prior on-line turbo selection calculator tests, here are the variables and values used to test the Not2Fast Turbo  Calculator:

--Inlet air temperature: 29.44 degrees Celsius (85 degrees f) (Formula: (°F - 32) x 5/9 = °C)
--Ambient air temperature: 29.44 degrees Celsius
--Altitude: 0 feet ASL (above sea level)
--Bore: 111.5568 mm (4.392 inches) (1 inch = 25.4 millimeters)
--Stoke: 97.79 mm (3.85 inches)
--Cylinders: 4 (Remember to divide #cyl by #turbos -- 8cyl/2 turbos = 4)
--Turbo compressor efficiency: 70%
--Manifold boost: 18 psi
--Intercooler efficiency: 80%
--Intercooler pressure drop: 1.0 psi
--Water injection (several inputs): None (We'll come back to this)
--RPM: 6200
--Volumetric Efficiency (average): 85%
--Air/Fuel Ratio: 12:1
--Specific Fuel Consumption: 0.55

This yielded the following results:

Pressure ratio:  2.29:1
Density ratio: 2.07:1    
CFM flow:  736 ft3/min  
HP: 487 (remember this is only half of the total engine power)  
LBM air flow: 53.61 lb/min  
Torque: 413 ft-lb
LBM fuel flow: 4.47 lb/min  
BMEP: 267.1 psi

The calculator also produced several results for temperature gain from compressing the air and reduction in intake air temp from charge air cooling.

Note that these results are more conservative than the prior calulators, mostly because of the air/fuel ratio and Specific Fuel Consumption inputs.

Increasing the r.p.m. to 6500 yielded a h.p. prediction of 511 h.p.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

speedzzter speedzzter
Guru | Posts: 1139 | Joined: 08/06
Posted: 03/15/11
07:31 AM

While I was surfing for photos for the "EPIC" daily driver poll (LOL) . . . .

13783  
http://speedzzter.blogspot.com

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/16/11
09:29 PM

TURBO TIP OF THE DAY:  "The team at BorgWarner has developed an interactive turbo matching program . . . Called Match-Bot . . .  Parameters such as BSFC, VE, and exhaust gas temperature are often difficult for the user to estimate, but helpful suggestions are offered each step of the way."

On-line Turbo Selection Calculators, Part IV

Many turbo manufacturers are less than helpful to enthusiasts.  They closely guard compressor and turbine maps. They shroud the selection process in mystery. They're generally not interested in making turbocharging easy for the home Car Crafter.

But BorgWarner is taking a different path.

BorgWarner's "Match-Bot" is one of the most powerful free internet programs for turbo selection modeling.

Based on a relatively reasonable number of input, Match-Bot allows users to model compressor and turbine performance, as well as several other parameters.

Match-Bot requires the following general inputs:

-- Turbo Configuration  (Single Turbo or Twin Turbo)  
--Displacement (Liters)  
--Ambient Air Temp (deg F)  
--Altitude (ft above sea level)


Match-Bot also requires the following inputs for six user-selected r.p.m. points:

--Engine Speed rpm        
--Volumetric Efficiency  %        
--Boost Pressure (Gauge)  psi      
--Intercooler Effectiveness  %      
--Intercooler Pressure Drop  psi      
--Air Filter Restriction  psi      
--Muffler System Backpressure  psi      
--Compressor Efficiency  %      
--Turbine Efficiency  %      
--Exhaust Gas Inlet Temperature  deg F
--Turbine Expansion Ratio
--BSFC  lb/hp-hr
--A/F Ratio

Based on thise inputs, Match-Bot provides a large data set, including:

--Compressor Pressure Ratio
--Compressor Outlet Temp
--Intake Manifold Air Temp deg F  
--Intake Manifold Air Density lb/in3  
--Density Ratio (Intercooled)  
--Actual Flow Rate (Not Corrected) lb/min
--Actual Flow Rate (Not Corrected) cfm  
--Corrected Air Flow Rate lb/min
--Corrected Air Flow Rate kg/sec
--Corrected Air Flow Rate kg/hr
--Corrected Air Flow Rate m3/sec  
--1/BSAC hp-min/lb  
--Turbo Shaft Power Hp
--Engine Power Hp
--Engine Torque lb-ft
--Fuel Requirement lb/hr
--Exhaust Manifold Pressure psi
--Engine Delta Pressure (dP) psi
--Turbine Swallowing Parameter PHI
--Turbine Corrected Flow @ 59F lb/min
--Is the Wastegate Flow Choked? `
--Wastegate Flow Area @ CF=0.9 in2
--WG Port Diameter Requirement mm
--Wheel Tip Speed m/s      
--Wheel Diameter mm      
--Wheel Rotational Speed rpm

Although the Match-Bot only plots results on Borg-Warner compressor and turbine maps, the wealth of data calculated makes this a helpful program to test matches and model expected performance for any home turbo build.

Match-Bot's on-line pop-up guidance assumes a fairly high level of familiarity with turbocharging and engine performance parameters. But for intermediate to advanced Car Crafters, "Match-Bot" can be a huge time-saver.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/16/11
09:49 PM

Match-Bot results for the corrected Edelbrock head/intake  466 BBF

For comparison purposes, this simulation uses the conservative parameters applied to the other on-line turbo simulation programs.

The BSFC curve is adjusted to match BorgWarner's suggestions, which may reduce top-end output a bit.

The data needs further adjustment because of a wastegate flow choke problem at higher r.p.m.

However, with predicted peak h.p. 1008 at 5000 r.p.m. and 1058 lb-ft of torque, all with a reasonable 129.18 peak air intake temperature, this unoptimized combination would be a strong street/strip powerplant.  Moreover, significant horsepower and torque is available in optimizing engine parameters.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/16/11
10:04 PM

Match-Bot simulation for the corrected Kaase P51 466 BBF

Better heads, more r.p.m. and improved intercooler efficiency yield huge results:

Engine Power projection  
3000 r.p.m. 488.2 h.p.
4000 r.p.m. 797.8 h.p.
4600 r.p.m. 1024.6 h.p.
5000 r.p.m. 1058.2 h.p.
6000 r.p.m. 1117.2 h.p.
7000 r.p.m. 1200.4 h.p.

Engine Torque projection (lb-ft)
3000 854.78
4000 1047.44
4600 1169.8
5000 1111.62
6000 977.88
7000 900.56  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/17/11
04:04 PM

TURBO PHOTO OF THE DAY
Kathy
Movin' Mav: Ford Maverick 6 turbo

(the photo works in preview)

Here's a back-up:

Dsc1814a
2.3 Ford turbo in a Maverick

Oops. I guess we'll have to rename this "Big Red X of the Day"

Valvecovers001

It's always St. Patrick's Day under this hood . . . .  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/17/11
09:09 PM

TURBO ALERT:  HOT ROD MAGAZINE "OUT CAR CRAFTS" CAR CRAFT (Again!)

In the April 2011 issue of HRM, it was 594 h.p. out of a Chinese-turbocharged 5.3-liter GM "Less" V8 -- at a budget $3,252.  The "secret weapon" of the JY 5.3 was an LS6 cam swap.

For a dirt cheaper encore, the MAY 2011 issue of Hot Rod has a dyno-proven 592 horsepower 4.6-liter SOHC Ford  for $2,298!  

Richard Holdener uses the same "CX Racing" turbo and eBay-style parts on this stock-long-block, stock-cammed modular wonder.  The "secret weapon" of the JY 4.6 is the cheapest air-water charge air cooler this side of a heater core in a tin box.

And perhaps there's a tad bit of "magazine math" in the mix (a few comp'd hoses and clamps, a clean long-block scored on a Pick-a-Part half-price day).

But virtually matching a celebrated "Less" with a cast-off Ford for $1,000 fewer dollars is a brilliant moment in JY hot rodding! It's a must-read.

Sadly, CC got scooped on this coup.  Ooo

Here's a Borg-Warner "Match-bot"  simulation of Hot Rod's "Budget Boost Turbo 4.6L 2V."

Note: The S400 SX compressor map and the turbine map are probably not very similar to the "CX Racing" turbo Holdener used.  However, it is interesting to see how a moderately-priced "big single" would match up with the 4.6.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/23/11
07:28 AM

TURBO PHOTO OF THE DAY
96 04MOD4
HP Performance turbo headers  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/28/11
10:11 AM

TURBO TIP OF THE DAY: Computer spreadsheets are the best way to perform turbo selection calculations at home.  

Virtually every popular book on turbocharging has its own set of formulae for selecting turbochargers. The basic method has been the same since the day of Hugh MacInnes' How to Select and Install Turbochargers.

Still, plenty of Car Crafters have been put off by "all the math."

Certainly, running all the calculations by hand or (more likely) with a hand-held calculator can be time-consuming.  Each change in parameters or assumptions will lead to a whole new set of calculations.

However, most personal computers come equipped with an elegant and powerful solution: a spreadsheet program.   With a spreadsheet, you can quickly calculate a huge number of outputs for an engine's entire powerband.  And once you've input the "math" and tested the output with known data, you don't have to think about the formulas again.

Setting up a basic turbocharger math spreadsheet is fairly simple.  It simply requires a bit of time, logical thinking and basic familiarity with how to translate formulas from "book language" into a form the spreadsheet can use.

The next series of articles (while we wait for a B-I-G CUBE NON-CHEVY TURBO PROJECT IN CC) is going to be about working through the construction of a turbocharger selection spreadsheet in the ubiquitous "Microsoft Excel" program.

For those traditionalists who prefer to "do the math" a different way, the relevant formulae will also be presented in non-spreadsheet form.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC 460-BBF-Turbo-In-CC
Guru | Posts: 1163 | Joined: 10/03
Posted: 03/28/11
10:14 AM

TURBO PHOTO OF THE DAY
Pontiac Transam Turbo 1 1
‘73 Trans Am 455 Turbo (no piddly 301 in this beast!) Read more about it here.  
--------------------------------
460_BBF_Turbo-in-CC (formerly Dr511scj) "This guy has no life other than posting endlessly on carcraft.com." -- Car Craft, July 2005
-------
October 1, 2003: " I'm thinking a couple of...turbos, blowing through an old Powerstroke intercooler...on a Super Cobra Jet-head 460 would be mad cheap and make sick power."
-------
"I have no problem with your...talking to several versions of yourself...or pointing out our failure to do a turbo story ...." --Douglas "CC/Rambler" Glad

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