For the heck of it I was re-reading your second post on this thread, you claim that a carb can't run 12:1 compression on pump gas, citing a hyabusa motorcycle.  My '07 Kawasaki ZZR600 is a 12:1 compression engine with carbs running 92 Octane naturally asperated and no knock sensor (120Hp from a .6L).  And you referenced engines running 12:1 compression in the 60's just fine, but you forgot to mention the fact they ran fine on 105+ Octane fuel which was acheivable with the lead additive. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, but also you state you can build the EFI system for $2500, I plan on doing the same for around $1200 using the already recommended MegaSquirt and a few choice parts from E-bay and the Junkyard. It'll be way more street friendly and tunable at all rpms and loads, but to each his own (you could probably do it cheaper than I with your machinist skills).  

Sarcasm,innuendos and an unimaginative sense of humor,wow! you're so original!Would you like a medal or gold star?CC would benefit alot from being creative.I'd bet that there is enough access to experienced automotive engineers in this mag. to build my system and make it work.I dare them as a challenge,they are allowed only an o2 snsor in an attempt to tune it,remember a few have said its not impossible!..................The point of the exercise was to eliminate the conventional EFI computer and alot of its assosiated parameters.Utilising mechanical and electronic ignition devices to make it work and adjustments to fine tune it.It may seem backwards.However my goal was a maintenance home mechanic friendly system.Without all the high tech headaches associated with conventional EFI.....Thats in reply to EJMURPHY90..............Now in regard to the hyabusa I'm willing to bet they run a high pressure injector set up at the point of injection,to achieve the compression ratio they are running........In Australia 98 unleaded and 92 are available at most "gas stations"....................In recent years GM in particular ,found that by running a higher fuel pressure,further atomising the fuel,that they could achieve a higher compression ratio (static) than previously without engine knock.This is employed in their fleet of efi unleaded 92 and 98 octane models.........I am aware that there is a large range of fuel injection types available............As a fitter/machinist I can do alot,also make custom made parts.Most new model intakes have cast bosses for injectors only requiring machining which is very basic in terms of complexity.You could almost machine it on a pedestal drill(bench),if you had patience and know how to set it up.I could with the correct drill sizes and reamers if available........And finally all the cars and engines I write about are real and mainly about people that I've met in my lifetime.I love outrageous concepts that can make alot of horsepower in forced induction terms especially..............One guy I heard of ran his naturally aspirated 351 with the intake air ,running through a chamber with the air conditioning unit inside .He claims that it makes more HP and consistncy,than it uses to run the a/c pump.  

I know with Hall sensors for triggering it could work (the distributor just doesn't put out the power for it directly) but as I said it's re-inventing the wheel, poorly at that. And unless you lock your timing your tuning will be a nightmare as the timing advances and retreats with rpm.  I never said it was impossible, just very very impractical for the results.

As for the Hyabusa you completely missed my point which was Kawasaki's 600cc (and probably their 1200cc) engine has 12:1 compression using carbureators, no high pressure injection, no fine mist, no Knock Sensors and it runs on 91-92 Octane.

The correct drill bit to make a hole in an intake the perfect size for the average fuel injector is available from MSD (yes the ignition company).  

"One guy I heard of ran his naturally aspirated 351 with the intake air ,running through a chamber with the air conditioning unit inside .He claims that it makes more HP and consistncy,than it uses to run the a/c pump"  Problems with this are like the fish that got away tale, there are always claims that are never verified by hard numbers and scientific testing, so they are only worth the breath they were made with until systematically tested. I'm not calling him a liar but I'm not going to spend several hundred dollars on a system like that on his "word", I'd want proof. Too many people with "400+ Horsepower" engines with no timeslips or dynosheets, so why don't I claim my 455 makes over 500Hp (after all everyone knows a Big Block should)? Because I can't back it up with proof from a third party (dragstrip or dyno).  

Silver,firstly the guy with the 351 did the entire job of modifying the a/c unit,so it cost him time/labour and little in terms of dollars.Also he never claimed an actual number output of HP.In his defence I'll believe him.On hot or humid days,carbys can run like absolute headaches and opposite to that,cold dry air conditions definitely produced alot more noticable power ,thats a fact.....Thus cosidering engines get hot any way ,after several minutes of operation,the cooler dense air will make a difference it just wont cool you inside the car...............................I would like to hear your explanation of how these 4 stroke motorcycle engines get away with such high compression and carbs?.....................And sorry,but I've seen and heard of too many people claiming Hp and dyno numbers with sheets to prove it ,and get their asses kicked come actual race time,by a less boastful entry...............If you carefully read my threads ,I am continually reinforcing the point ,that its not HP numbers that win races especially on the street.In a proffessional DRAG CAR totally set up for ET's only,yes more power to weight usually wins out.  

I don't need to explain how Kawasaki does it, you can write them and ask, but I'm guessing it has to do with head design. It's actually 12.8:1 Compression (http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/detail.aspx?id=268&content=specifications).  You just prove my point about people who boast get their rear's handed to them by people that can actually back it up, meaning they can say anything they want and it doesn't mean jack. Hence why we want hard numbers for proof, not talk.  

hmm.....i have a vision of a custom dizzy that uses the reluctor on the  centrifical advance shaft  to increase the dwell time on the injectors.  a second reluctor locked to the main shaft  that does not advance to open the circut..  this would give you changable dwell to power the injector.  a latching relay would be needed...

vacuum advance moving one of the pickups on the breaker plate to vary the dwell time with vacuum load might also be included...

 you might look at a vortec injector spider assembly.. as that single injector controls the flow to all the cylinders by  changing the pressure to  the junction block... not sequential ..

the vortec  pressure regulator to act as a power valve would also be usefull...

why not  use a bosch CIS fuel injecton assembly..    carefull mixing and matching of parts from differnt years of cars could lead one to a unit that will more than likely work...

many are remote mounted...    hose ends for the metric injection line fittings are available from parker or weatherhead.. many differnt flow ratings of cis injectors are around.. makes it easier to tune...  injectors can be bolted in with a bracket or mounted in a plastic or rubber ring to install them ...

pressure regulator heads from 4 to 12 cylinder motors... and the best part..  no electronic input from the ignition is needed.. one could even run a mechanical fuel pump.. the only electronic item i think might be needed is a cold start injector and switch......and those are stand alone..

if an electric fuel pump is used a oil pressure fuel pump cut off switch can be used...
many gm cars already use them...



be sure to include the temp pressure regulator from some applications..  it is the remote 2 hose unit down on the side of the block...

and at least the air bypass valve.. to increase the  idle speed during warm up...

waynep     at servsite  com  

POWERDREAMS- I wasnt insulting your idea. i hope that you do came up with a revolutionary new engine management system that makes all others obsolete. there is always room for improvment in these things. when i said that i wonder if this subject will be mentioned in CC, i meant that i wonder if they will analyze the practicality of such a system using their resources. thats what they do, and it is creative in the sense that they can determine the outcome of an action, such as an engine build, without actually putting tons of money into a potential failure. they use those things called computers, which you seem to hate so much. as for your sarcastic remark to my sarcastic remark, i apologize for amplifing my ignorance. you win by default, and may keep your gold star. you can use it as a credental when you start marketing your invention.  

They stopped handing out gold stars at pre school.I would'nt claim the idea to be revolutionary.I just felt like it would be a good idea to have something between a carburetor and EFI.A fuel system that can run higher fuel pressure and use the carb as throttle body.As well as having an electro-mechanical tuning ability,which could possibly see a versatile HP set up.I would like to have a system that can extend the injector operating range via fuel pressure.My point,being EFI computers require re programming and chipping(if they can be)if you change engine set up......Also its not an invention but an idea.  

Waynep712,thanks, so far your equation to my theory was the first answer that I was looking for.Where could I get a Latching Relay?what are the specs. required?Also will I need 1 or one for each injector?Thanks for your valuable input.You should be CC's Tech. advisor,I'm not kidding!  

latching relays can be had from many differnt manufacturers..

there are a bunch of electronic suppliers.  google latching relay...

and you are so far talking about a new system that does not exist yet... do you have the machinery to mill a custom dizzy??? weld injector bungs into a manifold.. have an engine run stand ... this is not something you can do with a power drill and a hacksaw...

are you prepared to melt a few test motors.????

everybody who designs something new and as complex as you want
is..

since this is bench racing...  i still think if you want a mechanical non computerized fuel injectoon system the bosch cis  is the way to go...

almost everything can be had at the junk yard...   use a hole saw in a mill to remove the injector mounting points from the junkyard intake... so you can mill out a hole and weld them in... even junkyard hoses for the injectors..  

Thanks Wayne I'll do some more research.I did want to know the electrical specs,ball park figure.I realize it would be 12v.Any other specs regarding this piece?..........And yeah I can turn a dizzy(it'd be fairly simple in terms of machining.Can also mill and operate a stack of different machines.Can weld,tig,mig,oxy and arc steel,ally,cast almost whatever........And I probably would'nt cook the motor as,1. I would use a o2 sensor with a hand unit to monitor rich/lean conditions beggining at idle and checking ratio every 500rpm.This way ,if it begins to lean,I can adjust as required.........And what makes/models of car have non-computerised bosch cis? I'm thinking early 70's mercedes if I can find one any others?  

benz, audi , vw, bmw, saab, volvo, porsche


these all have individual injectors to each cylinder that spray all the time and flow is dependant on pressure change do to the air lifting or depressing the air valve ..

there are several types...  some have an oxygen sensor and a fuel injector next to the fuel distrubibuter to fine tune fuel pressure ..   stay away from these at first...

someone has run off with my early fuel injection manual...so i cannot give you exactally which ones dont have the feedback circut...

junkyarding look for ones without the electric fuel injector routed into the fuel control circut..  it is in a looped line that starts on one side fo the control head and into the otter side..


there is a bosch brand fuel injection book that as i understand covers all aspects of fuel injection... this is not an aftermarket chilton, haynes, bently manual...

there are some really huge flow injectors available for older porshe race engines...

benz used it on the 560 motors and those are now showing up in the junkyards... that would give you an 8 injector head...with a displacment simular to a normal v8...
and differnt models of benz fi units are avaialble..not all are the same.

the nice thing about this set up is that you can use a stock manifold or a tuned port manifold as long as you can get a straight shot at the intake ports for the injector install

and you have a throttle body to control the airflow into the intake . you can remote the air box almost anywhere...

find the bosch fuel injection manual...  

It looks like you have abandoned using electronic fuel injectors. That is a good thing because these devices can not be run at 100% duty cycle for any considerable period of time.90% max with a Pulse Width Modified signal.
There is also the nasty issue of flyback voltage to deal with.I have been into electronics and efi for a few years now and dollar for dollar efi is going to beat any mechanical fi system. There is no need to fear tuning a feul and spark map as you know how to use a wideband o2 sensor anyway.For anything other than idle quality and low rpm, sequential injection is pointless.You just reach a point where the injector has to start to fire way before the inlet valve is due to open as revs increase, so you are back to the same situation as batch.
As a last point you realy should consider how many CIS cars have been converted to efi and what the owners think of the conversion. It's efi hands down.  

OK.  I read through this thread, and I decided to think outside of the box for you.

You know that each injector has 2 wire hookups --- + and -.
You know that the injectors cycle on a negative pulse, usually given from the ECU.
You are afraid that the voltage coming from your spark plug wires will blow up your injectors...and you're probably right.

Try this:  fire your ignition from a crank trigger.  Use your distributor to fire the injectors.  OK, you're thinking...I've already thought of that.  Well, instead of hooking up a 50k volt coil to the center post of your distributor, just hook up a wire that goes straight to a ground source.  Then, when your rotor makes contact with each position on the cap, it sends only a negative signal to your injector, thus cycling it.

If everything else works out with your variable fuel pressure regulators...you should be able to get this thing running.  

BTW, I'm a Naval Electrician, and thinking outside of the box is a job requirement for me.  

I thoroughly enjoy your idea, and I actually think it WILL work.  The people that are 100% sure that it won't are best left to coloring in thier books and watching re-runs of American Chopper...not heckling well-intentioned CAR CRAFTERS!  

*The rotor never contacts the Distributor cap wire contacts, it requires the high voltage to arc from the rotor to the cap.